Dog tags

[OldBill]

Did Imperial Russia or the SU ever use dogtags? If not, why?

[Dann Falk]

Greetings,

I must quote from my second book "The 7th Guards Army from Kursk to Prague 1943-45" (to be published early next year).

On Page 110...Each German soldier was issued a perforated metal Identification Tag or Erkennungsmarke (Dog Tag in the U.S. Military). Upon death, the tag/disk would be broken in half so that one part remained with the body and the Grave officers retained the other half for official recordkeeping.

The Soviet Union and the Red Army often treated their dead in a less than official manner. It was one thing to establish regulations in Moscow and then send out orders to the army for implementation, but another thing entirely to put burial orders into effect out in the field, during battle, and have the fallen buried.

As in other armies, Soviet soldiers also were issued identification metal medallions, or a pencil case or ebony capsule containing a paper note with personal data of the dead soldier. But too many times, all documents were collected from the dead during burial, leaving little or no individual identifying information behind.

I hope this helps.

Dann

Check out my small web site falkenbooks.com

[OldBill]

Thanks for the reply Dan. I've been watching Youtube where groups attempt to reclaim fallen soldiers, so this is what sparked my interest in the matter. I knew about the "Death Medallions" as one site called them, what surprised me was another site which said the Red Army stopped using them and instead simply used the soldiers paybook, which obviously has little chance of surviving 70 some years in the ground. These groups are doing sterling work in recovering the fallen, and occasionally are able to identify a soldier by using the smallest of clues, such as a piece of field gear marked by their initials. I haven't seen any episodes on these channels where a metal medallion was recovered, only the bakelite vials.
The massive scale of two world wars is, I think, a contributing factor to the issue. So many nations fighting there, so many millions of soldiers, it is mindboggling. Thanks again for the reply, I'll be looking at your books!
Regards, Bill

[Hans1906]

Bill,

I have seen several german documentaries about official russian and german groups, digging to find out about the fate of fallen soldiers on the
late war eastern fronts.

They found very few small "bakelite" tubes, inside completely rotten small pieces of paper, almost nothing was readable
anymore, the remains of fallen russian soldiers.

The leftovers are buried "anonym" with military ceremonies in large (mass) graves.

Difficult topic, and disturbing to look at these documentaries, sad stuff.


Hans1906

P.S. There are at least two or three german internet forums, concentrated only on this topic.

[Yuri]

Found near the State Farm 79 (Sowkhoz 79)
German,

Russian (can anyone restore the text?)

Here are some examples of notes where the text is well recognized.

[Yuri]

Bill,

I have seen several german documentaries about official russian and german groups, digging to find out about the fate of fallen soldiers on the
late war eastern fronts.

They found very few small "bakelite" tubes, inside completely rotten small pieces of paper, almost nothing was readable
anymore, the remains of fallen russian soldiers.

The leftovers are buried "anonym" with military ceremonies in large (mass) graves.

Difficult topic, and disturbing to look at these documentaries, sad stuff.


Hans1906

P.S. There are at least two or three german internet forums, concentrated only on this topic.

A song by the famous Soviet poet and performer Vladimir Vysotsky.
"The crosses are no placed on brotherly graves"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY3xVW3s0D4

I tried to translate the words into English.
========================================
The crosses are no placed on brotherly graves,
And widows don't weep at them,
Someone brings bouquets of flowers to them,
And the Eternal flame is lit.
Earlier here the earth used to stand up on its hind legs,
And now-granite slabs.
There is no personal destiny here -
All destinies are merged into one.
And in the Eternal flame you can see a tank that has flared up,
Burning Russian huts,
Burning Smolensk and the burning Reichstag,
The burning heart of a soldier.
By beside brotherly graves don't have weeping widows -
Stronger people come here.
The crosses are no placed on brotherly graves,
But does that make it any easier?.
===========================================

Here the first song "The crosses are no placed on brotherly graves" (sings for veterans),
and the second song "Soldiers of the Army Group "Center" go on Ukraine"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtTosGtSaWo

[Dann Falk]

Great photos of the personal data paper Yuri. I have never seen them before.

The song is also touching and sad.

Much thanks Yuri

[Dann Falk]

Yuri, where did you find the images of the paper notes with personal data of the Soviet soldiers?

Are they free to use? I might want to add them to my book in the section I quoted from.

As I said, I have never seen them before and others might find them interesting.

Thanks Dann

[Yuri]

Hi, Dann. Previously, these paper notes were not printed (I have permission to print).
They were found in 2005 (Ovchinnikov Stepan Moiseevich) and 2007 (Shlyangovsky Nikolay Alekseevich), as I pointed out above, near state farm 79 (the General name of the area is the lower course of the Chir river or region Surovikino, Nizhne-Chirskaya).
As it was established, Nikolai Shlyangovsky served in the 121 cavalry regiment of the 32nd cavalry division and died on December 7, 1942 in the battle for this sovkhoz (state farm). The remains of these two the Red Army soldiers were transferred to the memorial "Glory to the defenders of the land of Stalingrad". If they find the remains of soldiers and officers of the Red Army, they are reburied at this memorial. The memorial is located near the Bank of the Chir river, at the Northern end of the Kalinovskaya balka/gully. (By the way, on the maps of 41 years on this place is indicated the point of Nizhnyaya Kalinovka-in the memoirs of v.Mellentin, this point is mentioned several times).

[Yuri]

This ebony capsule is now in my possession, and it contained this paper note, which I also have now. You can use these images in your work. If necessary, I can take better photos of the capsule (I don't really like these). However, then you need to wait a bit, since I am not where the capsule is located.

[Yuri]

And these are German paper notes found in the same place.

3and5_PzGrReg21.jpg (79.34 KiB) Viewed 657 times

PzGrReg21.jpg (84.07 KiB) Viewed 657 times

[Dann Falk]

This ebony capsule is now in my possession, and it contained this paper note, which I also have now. You can use these images in your work. If necessary, I can take better photos of the capsule (I don't really like these). However, then you need to wait a bit, since I am not where the capsule is located.

Yes Yuri, a clear photo of the ebony capsule would be great and one of the note. If I use them in my book, I will give you credit for the contribution.

I will not be publishing until sometime early next year 2021, so there is time to do everything. You can find my small web site covering my first book here https://falkenbooks.com.

Much thanks for this offer as the images will add to the story and make it more tangible for the reader.

Dann

[Dann Falk]

Also,
Here is a map from my book "The 64th Army at Stalingrad 1942-43"

The Chir River and Nizhne-Chirskaya are displayed as well as the positions of the 64th Army.

Cheers

[Hans1906]

Good morning Yuri,

thank you very much for your interesting and very touching contributions to this topic, excellent!

Dan, good luck for your book and your further book projects...

Hans1906

[Simon H]

Found near the State Farm 79 (Sowkhoz 79)
German,
EM Trippler Otto Stab_lei_FlakAbt9.jpg
Russian (can anyone restore the text?)
DT_StFarm79(1) (IMG_0001).jpg

Here is Otto Trippler casualty card:

Should add that Otto lies at rest in Rossoschka. Block 23 Row 19 Grab 634.