Clearing minefields by marching over them

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John W
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Re: Some good laugh and amusing facts.

#1

Post by John W » 09 Jul 2003, 03:26

AHLF wrote:
(they also sometimes cleared minefields by marching over them).
Grisly sight if I ever saw one...

UGH!

John

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#2

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 12 Jul 2003, 00:40

the whole minefield thing... it was calculated that fast attacking infantry takes aproximately same number of casualties going through minefileds as engineers who tried to make a path in the minefield under the enemy fier.


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Javier Acuña
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#3

Post by Javier Acuña » 12 Jul 2003, 01:32

oleg wrote:the whole minefield thing... it was calculated that fast attacking infantry takes aproximately same number of casualties going through minefileds as engineers who tried to make a path in the minefield under the enemy fier.
Do you have any info on how/where it was calculated an by who?

Witch-King of Angmar
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#4

Post by Witch-King of Angmar » 12 Jul 2003, 01:57

Javier Acuña wrote:
oleg wrote:the whole minefield thing... it was calculated that fast attacking infantry takes aproximately same number of casualties going through minefileds as engineers who tried to make a path in the minefield under the enemy fier.
Do you have any info on how/where it was calculated an by who?
Maybe by some Commissar like our friend D the Evil, who some day was bored and tried the experiment :lol:

~The Witch King of Angmar

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David C. Clarke
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#5

Post by David C. Clarke » 12 Jul 2003, 02:01

Okay, okay, I confess--it was I, Commisar D, the EviL who made that calculation--but I never expected anyone to take me seriously!

Cheers,
~D

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#6

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 12 Jul 2003, 02:01

Javier Acuña wrote:
oleg wrote:the whole minefield thing... it was calculated that fast attacking infantry takes aproximately same number of casualties going through minefileds as engineers who tried to make a path in the minefield under the enemy fier.
Do you have any info on how/where it was calculated an by who?
I've read it either in Zhukov memories in some interview with him... I would assume that study was done by someone in his staff.

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#7

Post by Xanthro » 12 Jul 2003, 02:33

Javier Acuña wrote:
oleg wrote:the whole minefield thing... it was calculated that fast attacking infantry takes aproximately same number of casualties going through minefileds as engineers who tried to make a path in the minefield under the enemy fier.
Do you have any info on how/where it was calculated an by who?
It was calculated by Soviet Military staff by 1943.

The idea was that by attacking through the minefield as quickly as possible and eliminating the weak resistence the usually guards a minefield protected area, that fewer casulaties would occur that trying to clear the field under fire and allowing the Germans the opportunity to reinforce the defense.

In this case, it actually is the better option on the Eastern Front. The Germans lacked the manpower to defend in force and had to rely on mobility to stop attacks. Minefields provided trip wires and delays to allow this mobile force time to react. By moving quickly, the Soviets were often able to throw the defense into disarray and acheive objectives with reduced casualties.

Plus, demolition engineers take time and training, the squads that were thrown against the minefields didn't. These were often people recently released from prison.

I've read a number of Soviets accounts of how the minefields were cleared. They were actually appalled to learn that Americans wasted, in the Soviets minds, the lives of skilled engineers in trying to clear the minefield.

Xanthro

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David C. Clarke
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#8

Post by David C. Clarke » 12 Jul 2003, 02:35

But Xanthro, I thought that in Bagration, at least, the Soviets used mine-clearing tanks. Oh gee, now you've got me in this conversation.

Best Regards, David
Last edited by David C. Clarke on 12 Jul 2003, 02:36, edited 1 time in total.

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#9

Post by Caldric » 12 Jul 2003, 02:36

Xanthro wrote:
Javier Acuña wrote:
oleg wrote:the whole minefield thing... it was calculated that fast attacking infantry takes aproximately same number of casualties going through minefileds as engineers who tried to make a path in the minefield under the enemy fier.
Do you have any info on how/where it was calculated an by who?
It was calculated by Soviet Military staff by 1943.

The idea was that by attacking through the minefield as quickly as possible and eliminating the weak resistence the usually guards a minefield protected area, that fewer casulaties would occur that trying to clear the field under fire and allowing the Germans the opportunity to reinforce the defense.

In this case, it actually is the better option on the Eastern Front. The Germans lacked the manpower to defend in force and had to rely on mobility to stop attacks. Minefields provided trip wires and delays to allow this mobile force time to react. By moving quickly, the Soviets were often able to throw the defense into disarray and acheive objectives with reduced casualties.

Plus, demolition engineers take time and training, the squads that were thrown against the minefields didn't. These were often people recently released from prison.

I've read a number of Soviets accounts of how the minefields were cleared. They were actually appalled to learn that Americans wasted, in the Soviets minds, the lives of skilled engineers in trying to clear the minefield.

Xanthro
Wow that is interesting, I had never heard of that before, makes sense in a dark forbidding way. Somewhat takes chance out of the equation though.

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#10

Post by Xanthro » 12 Jul 2003, 02:41

David C. Clarke wrote:But Xanthro, I thought that in Bagration, at least, the Soviets used mine-clearing tanks. Oh gee, now you've got me in this conversation.

Best Regards, David
When the had them yes, the Soviets tended to lack specialized equipment in numbers.

The idea that the Soviets simply throw away their soldiers lives is exaggerated. All dictatorships develop a sense of failure is from lack of trying, so they try the impossible.

The Soviet era is full of such stories, managers turning on dams because the opening date had arrived, eventhough the dam wasn't finished. The managers simply believed that it HAD to work, the date had arrived and Stalin said it would work. It's a kind of religion.

This led to unnecessary Soviet soldiers deaths, and Officers would attack blindly thinking it would be succesful.

Xanthro

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John W
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#11

Post by John W » 13 Jul 2003, 04:52

Xanthro wrote:In this case, it actually is the better option on the Eastern Front. The Germans lacked the manpower to defend in force and had to rely on mobility to stop attacks. Minefields provided trip wires and delays to allow this mobile force time to react.
It was pretty much the case in any German theater of operations. One will note that this was speciafically how Rommel fought in North Africa.

I think it was this manpower shortage that almost forced the Germans to fight by the doctrine of mobile warfare.

It might have been calculated, but it is still a grisly sight if I ever saw one.

John (Shudders at the thought)

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#12

Post by Sokol » 13 Jul 2003, 09:06

I may be on the wrong page here, but weren't at least some of the mine clearance fodder "volunteers"? I think I read somewhere that, as long as they survived for some set period of time, they were pardoned for whatever crime they had committed to end up in prison or a penal battalion. Can anyone set me straight on this?

Regards,
Sokol

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lisset
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Mines

#13

Post by lisset » 20 Jul 2003, 11:06

Is it true that Zhukov in converstion said to an American General (post war) that the best way of clearing a mine field wa sto send the infantry across it ( ? Penal troops).
Russian value on life...at least those in Penal Regiments was poor if they lived they lived to be used again another day , if they died to bad ...there were more were hey came from.
German use of mines was i suspect not so differenet from all other nations.
God must be sick and satan delighted that we can inmvest so much time and money in finding ways to kill and mutilate each other....we are a seriouslt twisted bunch of bastards !! ( sorry but it is true whern a cold hard look is taken).

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#14

Post by Baltasar » 20 Jul 2003, 11:29

One could think that mankind will always find some new nasty ways to kill each other.

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May 10th 1940
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Re: Mines

#15

Post by May 10th 1940 » 20 Jul 2003, 21:04

[quote="lisset"]Is it true that Zhukov in converstion said to an American General (post war) that the best way of clearing a mine field wa sto send the infantry across it ( ? Penal troops).


Yes he said to an US general Our infantry crosses the battlefield if theres a minefield or not.

before the battle of the seelowe heights he got delayed because his shipment of prisoners hadn't arrived yet. They also used on Stalins orders POW or russian civillans that where taken prisoner by the german.

after the war Stalin send 1.5 million POW to siberia as traitors

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