Soviets and Valentine tanks

[phylo_roadking]

I don't really get how sound is used by tankers. Surely, to hear an enemy tank, you have to halt your own? Probably stick your head out of the turret?

Well, apart from actual combat, dont forget most hatches would be wide open, and the driver would have 'is 'ead out of his hatch as well as the commander...

[Urmel]

One aspect that wasn't mentioned in the earlier incarnation of this thread was that the Soviets liked them because they were quiet! SO quiet in battlefield conditions that they used them to outmanouver and hunt Tigers

They were also small and all had radios, so they were good recce tanks. When they came with the 6-pdr gun they were also capable of defeating Tiger armour, something the 76.2mm guns struggled with.

Here's the classic interview: http://english.battlefield.ru/dmitriy-loza.html

[CarbonMonoxide]

Talking about Valentines one should keep in mind, that it covered the need of light tanks in Red Army. The production of T-70 stopped in 1943 (not that it was dropped, they produced SU-76 instead). But there was a need for light tanks still, which was filled with LL Valentines.

PS Sorry for necroposting.

[LWD]

I don't really get how sound is used by tankers. Surely, to hear an enemy tank, you have to halt your own? Probably stick your head out of the turret?

Well, apart from actual combat, dont forget most hatches would be wide open, and the driver would have 'is 'ead out of his hatch as well as the commander...

I don't know about the Soviets but in some militaries even in comabat at least the TC would keep his hatch open and his head out. An analysis I saw of this some time ago indicated it produced a slight increase in TC losses but a decrease in both tank and overall crew losses.

[Stugbit]

Guys, When the Valentines first entered in service for the reds? You think in mid 41 they could count already with Valentines?

Regards !

[Paul_Atreides]

Guys, When the Valentines first entered in service for the reds? You think in mid 41 they could count already with Valentines?

Regards !

First units appeared on the front in the end of November 1941, near Moscow.

[Sheldrake]

One aspect that wasn't mentioned in the earlier incarnation of this thread was that the Soviets liked them because they were quiet! SO quiet in battlefield conditions that they used them to outmanouver and hunt Tigers

I don't really get how sound is used by tankers. Surely, to hear an enemy tank, you have to halt your own? Probably stick your head out of the turret?

And with a huge engine like the Tiger's, who knows, maybe a Tiger engine at idle is louder (if you're sitting on top of it) than a Valentine engine at full throttle, 500 meters away?

Still, I wish I had a Valentine of my very own - a little tank I can park in the garden without upsetting the neighbours... it might even fit in the garage!

If you want a little tank not to upset the neighbours you need one with rubber track pads - the magic phrase that used to allow access to a parking space in a nice farm complex used to be "nur mit Gummi ketten"

Noise is interesting. It isn't easy to hear much from an armoured vehicle on the move, hatch open or not. The noise from the engine, tracks and cooling fans can drown out external noises. But sentries and OPs are usually based in silenced vehicles or dismounted positions.

As a sometime Troop officer of a SP battery we used to try to occupy positions at night and as an FOO practiced pinpointing movement at night. Whining fans and squealling and thundering track noises can be picked up quite accurately and be heard from a long way away. Low rumbles from tank engines turning over or auxiliary engines can be quite hard to pin point. Rubber tracks are a lot quieter than metal and it is possible to can move quite quietly as long as the driver uses low revs and the right gear. Happiness is a well executed night occupation!

The author of "Commanding the Red army Shermans", Dmitriy Loza claims that his battalion was chosen as the core of the advance Guard that seized the centre of Vienna because the M4s were quiet.

[Art]

From the after-action report of the 201 Tank Brigade, February 1943

Mk-3 tanks are very mobile and qualitative vehicles in winter conditions and are best suited for combined operations with cavalry.
Combat experience has demonstrated that Mk-3 can carry a large infantry team on board without a detriment to mobility and firepower...

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=153712760

[Der Alte Fritz]

Valentine IX_4.jpg (40.54 KiB) Viewed 2713 times

Entering Roumanian Botoshani in April 1944 with the 6th Tank Army

[Art]

Mk-IX tanks have fully proved their worth. Although the regiment made marches of many kilometers on road-less terrain, sands, and in boggy and forest areas there wasn't a single case when a tank was out of action due to technical malfunction. Mk-IX are fully suitable for all conditions of battle operations of the motorcycle regiment.

From notes of combat employment of the motorcycle regiment and motorcycle battalions, Staff of the 2 Tank Army, September 1944
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=135901593

[Art]

Assessment of the "Valentines" of the 1 Ukrainian Front, not later than December 1943. The document was most likely compiled based on experience of the 9 Mechanized Corps/3 Guards Tank Army

During the period of offensive and defensive operations foreign tanks demonstrated the following positive qualities:
1. Good maneuverability in offensive combat
2. Present a small target on the battlefield
3. Good quality armor
4. Sufficient radius of action
5. Good marching durability
6. Motor group doesn’t require frequent adjustments
All those positive qualities are related to technical characteristics and show good maneuverability and durability of foreign tanks

There is a number of shortcomings in tactical respects:
a/ Weak armament. There is no HE shells for the gun, and armor-piercing shell has a small penetrating ability. The machine gun frequently jams when the cartridge case breaks and requires a lot of adjustments, which sometimes has a decisive effect for the life of a vehicle.
b/ MK-IX tanks cannot fight infantry due to absence of HE shells and a machine gun.
c/ Experience of breakthroughs of fortified positions demonstrated that MK-III and MK-VII tanks are best employed in combination with T-34s in various ratios.
d/ MK-IX tanks due to their weak armament are best employed as infantry support tanks.
e/ In defensive combat against enemy attacks they are best employed in secondary sectors and on flanks, since their guns have too small penetration capability (40-45 mm) against frontal armor of German medium and heavy tanks.
f/ Technical problems: tracks don’t have spurs, tanks frequently slide especially in rainy weather, at large roll angle they frequently slide sideways, at turns MK-IX tends to drop tracks, brakes are weak, accessibility of engine is poor. Due tot tactical and technical problems Mk-III, MK-VII and MK-IX can only be employed as light tanks.

On a positive side cross-country mobility is good, and wear of chassis is slow; tanks a capable of making long marches.

Mechanical reliability
1. Production quality of Mk-III, MK-VII and MK-IX is quite good. During exploitation there were no cases of breakdowns caused by production defects.
2. Example: result of a 130-km march made by a mechanized corps equipped with T-34 and Valentines:
T-34 – 5 tanks broke down out of 38 (13.1%)
Valentines – 5 tanks broke down out of 81 (6.17%)
3. There are technical problems caused by the fact that domestic diesel fuel produces a lot of soot deposit on pistons and piston obturator rings due to high content of tar and increased viscosity.

When a shell hits one of road wheels the entire boogie is damaged and the tank becomes immobilized.
A shell hitting a gun leaves a dent on the barrel. There are frequent cases of a turret jammed after shell hits.

Rate of irrevocable losses:
T-34 – 11 out of 36 (30.5%)
Valentines – 33 out of 81 (40.7%)

From a technical side Valentines have longer lifetime compared to T-34. Tank aggregates wear is uniform.

Conclusions:
1. Foreign tanks of Mk-III, Mk-VII, Mk-IX type should be employed as infantry support tanks.
2. Both the gun and machine guns must be replaced.
3. Can be employed in combination with domestically produced tanks.
4. In defensive combat they should be used for diversionary actions or against flanks.

from:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=110110142

[Art]

The first combat experience with Valentines in 1941:

To the chief of the Main Automobile Armored-Tank Directorate of the Red Army
Combat and technical characteristics of the English Mk-3 type tanks
Operations of Mk-3 vehicles in combat conditions from 20.11 to 6/12 revealed the following positive qualities:
1. The vehicles is easy to drive, drivers are not tired by operating the vehicles.
2. Very easy to steer while moving.
3. Silent in movement.
4. Small expenditure of fuel.
5. All mechanisms are simple and reliable.
6. The gun is simple to handle and provides accurate and reliable fire.
7. The thickness of armor fully protects from simple (*) 37-mm and 45-mm rounds.
8. Observation devices are satisfactory and are well protected from bullets and splinters.
9. In winter conditions the vehicle is very easy to start.

Negative qualities of the vehicle

1. The power of engine is relatively weak. The vehicle cannot tow a 1-ton truck, and stalls at long and steep climb.
2. Compared with modern vehicles the maximal speed is too small, it is needed to increase it to 50 km[/h]. The track profile should be more salient.
3. Friction with the ground is completely unsatisfactory. On a slippery ground the vehicle is almost uncontrollable, on a slippery climb it slips.
4. The operational radius is small /practical radius doesn't exceed 100 km/.
5. The machine guns frequently jams at the start of a belt.
6. Ammunition load is small, it is needed to double the number of rounds. HE mortar rounds needed instead of smoke rounds, not less then 40-50.
7. The weakest part of the armor are engine hatches. They need to be reinforced. Most penetrations of armor are in the engine hatches.
8. The sickness of armor of the turret hatch is unsatisfactory. There were cases when the periscope armor cap was torn off together with it base on the turret roof.
9. Weak track pins are frequently fractured on hard ground or hard surface roads.
10. The suspension layout makes towing the tank when the track falls down or when the forward wheel is damaged very difficult. In such a situation the wheel buries itself in the ground and towing the tanks is made almost impossible.
11. It is desirable to have a 45-mm gun adapted to our ammunition.

Chief of staff of the 146 Tank Brigade
major Lozin
6.12.1941

(*) meaning apparently a usual armor-piercing round as opposed to armor-piercing composite (subcaliber)

[Art]

Another piece of experience from the 23 Tank Brigade

Report on tactical employment of English-built Mk-2 and Mk-3 tanks and domestic-built T-60 tanks in combat conditions.

1. 23 Tank Brigade was in constant action from 16 to 31 December 1941 and have an experience of practical employment of Mk-2, Mk-3, and T-60 tanks in combat conditions.
2. Making march on a main road previously developed by animal-drawn vehicles doesn’t present a problem for Mk-2, Mk-3 and T-60 tanks .
When the road is undeveloped and the snow cover is 40-45 cm deep, Mk-2 and Mk-3 can lay tracks in snow while loosing speed (Mk-2 has a good going in 3rd gear, Mk-3 – in 1st and 2nd gear). T-60 tanks without tracks laid by animal transport or medium tanks cannot negotiate the snow cover of this sickness.
Movement of separate tank columns consisting of T-60 tanks alone without tracks laid in advance is impossible.
Marches of above-mentioned types of tanks on secondary roads and column tracks doesn’t present a problem either, and the method of their movement remains the same.
Icy slopes at 20-25 degrees are difficult to pass for Mk-2 and Mk-3 tanks due to absence of spurs on tracks,
T-60 in such slopes needs to be towed.
The speed of Mk-2 and Mk-3 tanks off road with the snow cover 40-45 deep decreases to:
a) on a flat ground – 5-6 km/h
b) on a broken ground they are almost immobile..
T-60 tanks even on a flat ground with such sickness of snow are almost immobile...
....
9. …
Guns of Mk-2 and Mk-3 tanks are trouble-free, but absence of HE rounds for these guns prevents effective engagement of hostile weapons. As concerns tank machine guns, there are frequents jams caused by skew of a machine-gun belt.
....
12. To heat engines at typical temperature when the tank stoves and canvasses are absent 4-5 ours of engine operation in a day are needed. The practical expenditure of fuel:
Mk-2 – 100-120 liters per day
Mk-3 = 80-90 ----
T-60 – 70-80 ----
...
13.
...
Duration of repair in winter conditions is longer than in the summer. Repair of English Mk-2 and Mk-3 tanks is difficult due to lack of experience and manuals for these vehicles. The need to keep tanks in operational conditions required periodic heating of tank engines which led to their wear, especially as far as diesel engines of English tanks are concerned.
Without heating and filling the cooling system with antifreeze reliable operation of diesel engines of English tanks is impossible. Nozzles, radiators, drain pipes should be insulated with felt.
Diesel engines of English tanks operated using domestic fuel (diesel fuel) and lubricating oil without failures.

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454988384