kornilov shock regiment/white russians

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Balrog
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kornilov shock regiment/white russians

Post by Balrog » 22 Aug 2003 00:48

i was looking over some white russian history photos and came across the regimental badge for the kornilov shock regiment. the unit crest with a skull, bones, swords, and with the cyrillic russian script is one of the most sinister looking emblems i have ever seen. does anyone have photos of this unit? who was kornilov? when did he die? was this white unit notorious for war crimes?(probably, it seems most white units were) even the white army's medals look sinister. the bermont-avalov cross has skulls and crossed bones too. that army resembles pirates more than anything. did the kornilov regiment ever fight in the baltics?

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Post by Gwynn Compton » 22 Aug 2003 11:55

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Larv Kornilov, any connection?

Lavr Kornilov was born in Ust-Kamenogorsk, Siberia, in 1870. After graduating from the Mikhailovsky Artillery Training Corps in 1892 he was commissioned and posted to Turkestan. He also studied at the General Staff Academy (1895-1898) before being assigned to espionage duties in Iran and India.

Kornilov was decorated during the Russo-Japanese War and served as military attaché in China from 1907 to 1911. On the outbreak of the First World War he commanded Infantry divisions on the Eastern Front. He was captured by the Austro-Hungarian Army in Galicia in 1915 but escaped the following year and was given command of the 25th Army Corps on the South-West Front.

When the Tsar abdicated a Provisional Government, headed by Prince George Lvov, was formed. Soon afterwards Kornilov was appointed Commander-in-Chief of the Petrograd Garrison. Kornilov wanted to use force to deal with the Bolshevik agitators in the Russian Army. Alexander Guchkov, the Minister of War, disagreed, and he was sent back to the Eastern Front.

Kornilov was appointed Supreme Commander of the Russian Army by Alexander Kerensky, the new Minister of War. The two men soon clashed about military policy. Kornilov wanted Kerensky to restore the death-penalty for soldiers and to militarize the factories.

On 7th September, Kornilov demanded the resignation of the Cabinet and the surrender of all military and civil authority to the Commander in Chief. Alexander Kerensky responded by dismissing Kornilov from office and ordering him back to Petrograd.

Kornilov now sent troops under the leadership of General Krymov to take control of Petrograd. Kerensky was now in danger and so he called on the Soviets and the Red Guards to protect Petrograd. The Bolsheviks, who controlled these organizations, agreed to this request, but in a speech made by their leader, Vladimir Lenin, he made clear they would be fighting against Kornilov rather than for Kerensky.

Within a few days Bolsheviks had enlisted 25,000 armed recruits to defend Petrograd. While they dug trenches and fortified the city, delegations of soldiers were sent out to talk to the advancing troops. Meetings were held and Kornilov's troops decided to refuse to attack Petrograd.

Kornilov was arrested but he escaped and became one of the commanders of the White Army during the Civil War. Lavr Kornilov was killed in action during the siege of Ekaterinodar on 13th April, 1918.


Both from http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUSkornilov.htm

Some toys based on the regiment

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Image

Both from http://www.michtoy.com/MTSCnewSite/newmetal_folder/St_Georges_Cross/St_Georges_Cross.html

Gwynn

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 22 Aug 2003 14:54

Most of the White Russian Shock regiments were made up of ex-Czarist officers,cadets and NCOs,probably comparable with a German Freikorps type unit.

Kornilov's forces in the advance on Petrograd were mainly cossack units from the 3rd Cavalry Corps.When he resurfaced on the Don front in late 1917 this was the first major campaign when White Russian Shock troops were encountered by the Soviets.Overall such units were never raised in
quantities to influence the overall strategic outlook.

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http://www.garrison-clubs.org/clubs/BAR ... rcwz1a.gif

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Post by Balrog » 22 Aug 2003 16:02

were the czarist shock troops units any good? did some of them perform at least as good as the german freikorps units? i mean , i know they were defeated by the red army, but were the shock troops really crack troops or just sinister emblems?

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Post by J.P. Slovjanski » 23 Aug 2003 00:19

What the hell do you mean "White units were notorious for atrocities"? Where the hell do you get information like that? From trustworthy Communists? That's a great source.

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Post by Balrog » 23 Aug 2003 00:56

well ,if you have information to dispute it, please post it.

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Post by Balrog » 23 Aug 2003 01:14

the kornilov shock troop regiment seems to have outlived its founder. does anyone know its history? what was its troop strength? kornilov seems to have had a ruthless personality. i think this is the right kornilov.

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Post by J.P. Slovjanski » 23 Aug 2003 21:00

You're the one who made the accusation, so you must support it. Logic 101.

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Post by Balrog » 23 Aug 2003 21:42

i knew that would be your response. this forum is for the free exchange of information, not just a place to insult people. if you have some information to add to the conversation, then add it. i have read over the few posts you have made in the last 8-9 months and your posts are nothing but insults that add nothing to the topic discussed.

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Post by Balrog » 24 Aug 2003 14:29

i recieved an e-mail response from a russian historian concerning the kornilov shock regiment. the unit was raised in august 1917, but kornilov never commanded it. it's regimental commander was a colonel nezhentzev. the shock regiment took part in the attack on petrograd provisional government in fall 1917. after the october revolution it moved to south russia and was garrioned in an area called novocherrkassk. the regiment joined up with general denikin's voluteer white russian army and fought against the bolshiveks. after kornilov was killed, the regiment kept his name. it fought the red army thoughout 1918 and in 1919 had the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th regiments added to it becoming kornilov's shock brigade, and months later it evolved into kornilov's shock division. it fought the reds in the crimea until the unit was evacuated by ship to turkey. the remants of the division did not participate in any more fighting and settled into camps on the gallipoli penisula. the soldiers stayed there until 1922 when they were evacuated one last time to bulgaria were the kornilov unit was disbanded and its soldeirs discharged. i don't know who allowed the russians to stay in turkey. ataturk? i doubt it. perhaps it was the invading greek armies that invited the russians into turkey. ataturk was making deals with the red government for assitance from lenin, i doubt he would have given the white russians safe haven. i hope someone will let me know. i don't know why the white russians didn't join the greek armies and help take asia minor or constantinople. any photos of this unit or more on its commanders would still be appreciated.

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Post by Ike_FI » 24 Aug 2003 16:31

Kornilov is being carried by his enthusiastic supporters in Moscow in August 1917 when he arrives to a broad-based summit which's purpose is to find solutions to end the strikes and unrest.

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Black-and-red banners: Centers of support for Konilov's coup
Red spots: Resistance/unrest against Kornilov
Published in Istorija grazhdanskoi voiny. Tom pervyi. 1917 - 1922. Moskva 1935.

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Source: http://www.helsinki.fi/~jjeerola/viipkartta.htm

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Post by Peter H » 25 Aug 2003 10:11

Wrangel's White Russian forces were evacuated to the Dardanelles within the Allied 'International Zone' set up after 1918.Under the Treaty of Sevres,British,French and Italian troops occupied both sides of the Dardanelles,the Sea of Marmara and Istanbul.The last Sultan of Turkey still ruled Istanbul.The Whites were disarmed in transit camps around the Gallipoli Peninsula.Most ended up moving onto France,Germany,Serbia and Bulgaria---in 1922 there was still 138,000 Russians in the Allied Zone but within 5 years no White Russians remained in Turkey.The 1922 Chanak Crisis(when Ataturk finally arrived in the area after defeating the Greeks beforehand and confronting British troops there),finally lead to the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923 with all Allied troops withdrawn.

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Post by Peter H » 25 Aug 2003 10:20

During 1919 anti-Bolshevik forces had resorted to atrocities of their own.These disgusted British public opinion(the main financier of the White Russian forces paying something like 150 million pounds a year was Britain) and Winston Churchill himself protested with great vigour to Denikin of the anti-Semitic atrocities which White forces committed wherever they advanced.According to Churchill himself,by the end of 1919 over 100,000 Jews had been butchered in southern Russia.While Churchill hated all that Bolshevism stood for he also acknowledged that he wasn't too enthusiastic about the existing alternative.

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Post by Docent P » 25 Aug 2003 12:11

Kornilov is one of my most favourite person of the Russian 20 cent. history.

>was this white unit notorious for war crimes?(

I have seen a lot of accusations but never any documented fact. In the VERY brutal Civil War Kornilovs must be the last ones blamed for the war crimes. In the front of the Reds or peasant rebels the best White units were showing the top of humanism (I would say sometimes too extremal humanism).

>the bermont-avalov cross has skulls and crossed bones too. that army resembles pirates more than anything. did the kornilov regiment ever fight in the baltics?

No, Bermodt had no relations to the Kornilovs as well as to the White Forces in whole.

>Kornilov was appointed Supreme Commander of the Russian Army by Alexander Kerensky, the new Minister of War. The two men soon clashed about military policy. Kornilov wanted Kerensky to restore the death-penalty for soldiers and to militarize the factories.

At first Kornilov must be referred as a very strong anti-monarchist. He personally arrested the Emperor Nicholay the Second in March 1917. He had the liberal reputation but anyway was VERY respected within the Army as Commader of the Steel Division - the best unit of Russian Army.

>On 7th September, Kornilov demanded the resignation of the Cabinet and the surrender of all military and civil authority to the Commander in Chief. Alexander Kerensky responded by dismissing Kornilov from office and ordering him back to Petrograd.

That's a little wrong.

In August 1917 the Bolsheviks had been planning their next anti-government coup. All the streets of Petrograd were overcrowded by well armed pro-Bolshevik gangs of deserters and German spies. So Kerensky ordered Kornilov to provide security of the capital. Kornilov moved the last well disciplined unit - the 3d Cav Corps led by Gen Krymov - to Petrograd. Unfortunately this became known for everyone and dear leftist comrades, who were in majority in the government, started yelping as loud as they could (as they always do about everything). Especially they were screaming about Kornilov's (quite sensible) suggestion to evacuate the government to Mogilev, to the Army Headquarter. In their crazy yelps it turned to "Kornilov is going to arrest the government and to put them into the Army guard house in Mogilev etc." - it's impossible to put on every BS they managed to pure on Kornilov.

Meanwhile Lenin, being very frightened of Kornilov, cancelled all his pre-planned actions and escaped to Razliv (as far as I remember). The danger of Commy coup disappeared (not for long). May be you think that Kerensky thanked Kornilov and sent the troops back? In no way. This extra-sophisticated politician decided to pick up his personal benefit - to find the wide support from the Leftists. He made believe that he had no idea why Kornilov had been moving the troops on Petrograd. In other words it looked as Kornilov's own conspiracy against Kerensky and all the legal government. Encouraged by the Leftists and Bolsheviks' dirty papers Kerensky called Kornilov a traitor and ordered to arrest him. General Krymov, who had already arrived to Petrograd, was shot down in the Kerensky's room. Since no army unit would arrest him, Kornilov arrested himself (put himself into the Bykhov jail and ordered his personal escort to guard him) and demanded the open trial where he would have proved his innocence and disclosed Kerensky's dirty tricks.

But it never happened.

>http://www.garrison-clubs.org/clubs/BARRAGE/BarrageImages/rcwz1a.gif

The three guys from the right belong to the Markov regiment. All the White "coloured units" can be easily detected by their caps' colours:
Kornilov Regiment (Brigade, Division) - black with red top,
Markov -''- black with white top,
Drozdovsky -''- cherry-coloured with white top,
Alekseev -''- blue with white top.

>were the czarist shock troops units any good?

They were not "czarist" - Kornilov himself was devoted anti-monarchist and was democratically minded as well as the top of the White Movement - Denikin, Kolchak, Vrangel etc. And of course they were VERY good. Sometimes the Reds run away without any combat as soon as they had seen the Kornilovs' uniform.

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Post by Balrog » 25 Aug 2003 15:57

docent, that kornilov was an anti monarchist is a revelation to me. what kind of government did the white russians want to put in place of the reds and the czar? i remember reading a one point admiral kolchak giving himself the title, "supreme ruler of all the russia's". were the white's planning a dictatorship? a parliamentary democracy?( i ask that seriously, not to be sarcastic).
i was readig some of trotsky's writings and he claimed that it was the wide spread fear of kornilov himself and the belief that all the bolshevik prisoners(including trotsky himself) jailed by kerensky would be killed upon kornilov's arrival in petrograd that caused most of the urban proletariat to take up arms and fight. kornilov was a no nonsense, ruthless commander.
even wrangel didn't want to restore the monarchy? what generals in the white russian army were still loyal to the romanov's? why did kornilov turn against the monarchy?
i recieved an e-mail from a russian historian who told me that the survivors of the kornilov division ended up being shipped to bulgaria and discharged from the army. the same historian told me that kornilov's shock regiment was THE best regiment in the white russian army(his opinion too) and that kornilov's shock troops were better known for discipline than cruelty. BUT, he does concede that the korniov's shock troops had a beastial reputation among the red army and the bolshevik press and leadership accused them of all kinds of war crimes.
moulded, i didn't think ataturk would have wanted white russians soldiers in turkish territory, especially since he was fighting the greeks(potential allies of russians) and making alliances with the soviets. it was the allies that shipped them in. thank you for the information.

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