kornilov shock regiment/white russians

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Retro
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Post by Retro » 03 Sep 2003 15:22

I find also picture of Kornilovces like this.
Image
1.private from group of hosed recon from Korni³ov shock regiment (1919 – 1920)
2.Chef of Kornilov shock division gen. Major. N. Skolkov (1920 y)
3. Junior NCO from Korni³ov shock regiment (1919 – 1920)
4.Capitan of Konilov artillery brigade (1919 – 1920)

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Post by Balrog » 04 Sep 2003 04:32

did colonel nehtenzev survive the civil war? does anyone have a photo of this man wearing a uniform?

how does current russian historians view kornilov?

how does russian society today view the whites? does the average russian still have pro bolshevik feelings because of what they have learned in school and growing up in the USSR?

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Post by Docent P » 04 Sep 2003 08:45

>what kind of government did the white russians want to put in place of the reds and the czar?

The main thing necessary to see is that the Whites were not going to take the power for themselves. This was their main distinction from any similar movement. All the White governments' political programs were directed in the only way: to present the power to the Constitutive Assembly (Uchreditel'noe Sobranie) elected in 1917 and closed by the Soviets. The White governments repeatedly underlined they HAD NO RIGHTS to determine the new created regime. The corner stone of every program was - non-predetermination of the form of ruling. It was the sacred principe of all the White Movement.

This approach used to be widely criticised by many observers and some Whites as well after the war because the principe of "non-predetermination" gave the comrades a lot of opportunities in the propagandist fight. Their agitators were histerically yelping: "see, comrades, they are not providing any reforms, so they are going to restore the czarist Russia, to confiscate the land from the peasants and to exploit the proletariat again etc..." Meanwhile the same propagandist cliches were widely spread in the newly created autonomies like the Baltic countries, Georgia and Poland. There local leaders (mostly chauvinists and leftists) saw their benefit in blaming the Whites for their "imperialism" and seeking an alliance with Lenin who unlike the Whites was always ready to "give" independence to everyone and to sign any agreement (although he was never going to keep any of his promises). In result the Whites saw so little support in their rear.

>were the white's planning a dictatorship? a parliamentary democracy?( i ask that seriously, not to be sarcastic).

IMHO a parliamentary democracy would be more probable. But once Kornilov (famous as a strong anti-monarchist) was asked what if the CA had decided to restore monarchy. Kornilov answered: "I will obey and then kill myself".

>...all the bolshevik prisoners(including trotsky himself) jailed by kerensky would be killed upon kornilov's arrival in petrograd

I have seen no evidences from trustfull sources about the plans to execute every prisoner. But if someone had killed Trotsky I would rather call it the act of humanism :) .

>...that caused most of the urban proletariat to take up arms and fight.

The real events looked oppositely. Neither in June nor in August when the "proletariats" (gangs of drunk lumpens and deserters) were faced by the threat of a military response they were keeping down. But as soon as their main enemy - Kornilov - was arrested and they felt themselves secured their courage raised up to be enough for the coup in October.

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Post by Docent P » 04 Sep 2003 11:00

>even wrangel didn't want to restore the monarchy?

Yes, Wrangel was a strong anti-monarchist as well. Furthermore he was one of the most democratically-minded and undoubtly the most successive of the White leaders. During his ruling he decided to violate the sacred principe of non-predermination and made a successfull agrarian reform (in result he got extremal popularity among the Russian peasants), reorganized the work of the internal White authorities in Crimea, which hadn't been paid enough attention from his predeccessors (in result was the end of criminal terror first time since 1917), ressolved the key problem of the foreign policy (in result he became the first and the last White leader officially recognized abroad as a legal ruler). The greatest of this acts was the agrarian reform that provided the land to these peasants who were really ready to work on it.

Wrangel's popularity among the Russian population (including Sovdepia as well) was overhelming. While during Denikin's offensive the peasants (due to the Red propaganda's effort) said: "the generals are fighting the commisars" and generally were neutral; about Wrangel their opinion was: "Wrangel is going to LIBERATE us". Every rumor of Wrangel's victories (usually overestimated) caused a wave of peasants' uprisings through all Russia. Of course the Soviets responded with kilotons of propagandist bullsh*t. Probably in this area Wrangel (politely nicknamed "Black Baron") overrun all the rest White generals taken together. It would take too much time to discuss every piece of sh*t put on his head so I would like just to say that when I was a schoolboy I had to sign communist songs every Wednesday at the "pioneer line" (as well as every usual Soviet student) and one smash-hit was: "White Army and Black Baron are going to restore the tzarist throne again, but from Oka up to Britain seas the Red Army is the strongest one...". 60 years had passed since the end of the Civil War and Wrangel's death but nevertheless the Communist propagandist machine was still working against him!

>what generals in the white russian army were still loyal to the romanov's?

All the White leaders - Wrangel, Denikin, Miller, Kolchak, Yudenich - were anti-monarchists so if even some White general was still loyal to the Romanovs he would keep it with himself to avoid problems in his career. So mostly their names remained unknown. Strong monarchists were Great Knights Nicholay Nicholaevich and Kirill Vladimirovich Romanov but they never belonged to the White Forces. Instead they were recruiting young officers and tried to organize a right-wing opposition to Denikin and later to Wrangel inside the army. One day Wrangel simply deported the both guys to France and all the monarchist movement was over.

>why did kornilov turn against the monarchy?

Since Kornilov left no memoirs and very few interviews I think it's hard to say definitely. I suppose the reason was that in the 1910s Russia had got the most democratic regime in it's history. Liberal economic laws, freedom of speech, independent judicial power and parliament gave it a broad way for a further democratic development. In this stage the tzarist power became a fiction, Nicholay the 2nd himself was keeping away from the power and resigned with the first opportunity. But meanwhile his power was still a problem for the country because mostly of Nicholay's relatives. Someone who didn't feel himself enough talented to reach the power in a honest way tried looking at the career possibilities in the Tzar's environment. Unfortunately Tzar and his wife used to allow these scums too much. So many Russian progressive thinktanks were sure that the best decision would be to cancel the monarchy at all. That's how I would explain Kornilov's position.

>...and the bolshevik press and leadership accused them of all kinds of war crimes.

Which was their favourite job. There they were in their best.

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Post by Docent P » 04 Sep 2003 12:37

>Maybe you can gave me some addresses of white sites.

Try these ones (in Russian):

http://www.hrono.ru/biograf/bio_b/belye.html - biographies of the Whites
http://whiterussia1.narod.ru - info about White forces structure

http://2003.novayagazeta.ru/nomer/2003/ ... -s40.shtml - a good article by Alexander Melenberg about Kornilov (in Russian)

Also I can recommend Shambarov's book Belogvardeishina (in Russian as well) in the militera.lib.ru
Although our friend Reigo has blamed this book as bullsh*y nevertheless I found it usefull at least for a base knowledge.
---------------------

>he and General Seminov were Kolchak’s right hand men)

Semenov wasn't Kolchak's right hand. Actually Kolchak hated Semenov and called him "a White Bolshevik". In another case Kolchak said: "all our failures are caused by the White Bolshevism".

>Churchill and the pogroms of 1919. ...

The main pathos of this leftist article is what a cruel awfull antisemite Churchill is. To prove it they use all possible Communist propagandist inventions. It's just interesting that in 1940 when Churhill rejected Hitler's "peace suggestions" he was referred by his enemies as the Voice of the Jewish Secret World Government (or smth in this way). Good career for a bloody anti-semite :) .

>More on the Jewish massacres of 1919:
>http://nachshen.com/zeleny.shtml

Please don't mix the Whites and Greens. The Greens were anarchists with very close to the Reds ideology. Usually they were fighting the Whites alongside with the Reds but soon after the victory the comrades would turn against their former allies. The Whites and especially the Kornilov Regiment had nothing common with these guys.

>Civilians deaths in the Civil war was (from memory) about 2 million.Disease and famine took a large toll.Combine this with the atrocities on both sides and blood flowed freely.

Looks as the sinister shadow of Krivosheev is over the forum again :) .

Actual numbers are estimated by different sources (lets keep Krivosheev away) from 10 to 25 mln. Melgunov for example gives 15 mln only executed by the VChK.

---------------------

>is it just me, or does kornilov bear a striking resemblance to another asiatic, vladimir lenin?

In other words every asiatic looking guy has a striking resemblance to Lenin? What about 2 billion Chinese? I didn't find anything common besides this.

------------------------
>did colonel nehtenzev survive the civil war? does anyone have a photo of this man wearing a uniform?

Nezhentsov was killed in a harsh street battle in Ekaterinodar one day before Kornilov. They were buried together.

Image

I doubt he ever wore the Kornilovs specific uniform. During the Ice Raid all the officers had to wear the old clothes they had managed to obtain. Coloured nice uniform appeared rather later.

>how does current russian historians view kornilov?

If we don't mention all kinds of gareevs and krivosheevs who I'll never call historians mostly the altitude is very respectful. For example one my favourite historian - Alexander Melenberg - called him a pearl on a giant dunghill.

>how does russian society today view the whites? does the average russian still have pro bolshevik feelings because of what they have learned in school and growing up in the USSR?

I don't think most Russians have strong anti-White feelings. In the Soviet period we were told that Kornilov, Denikin, Wrangel etc. were cruel terrible monsters while the Red commanders and party officials - holy angels (except Stalin and a few others - "disclosed" at the 20th Party Session). In the late 80s and early 90s there were many publications positively minded to the White side because Yeltsin (nicknamed Tzar Boris) needed to underline his succession of pre-revolutionary Russia. Meanwhile his supporters (mostly Commies and KGBists) were not ready to cut off all their "herous past". So in result the Reds remained the same highly praised guys but then they were added the White persons. And the Kremlin avowed for "reconciliation", even the 7th of November became "the day of reconciliation". Yeltsinists were screaming that we shouldn't divide our nation on Reds and Whites, that all of them were equal victims of one sad civil war which nobody is guilty for. In result in the head of a not interested in history Russian civilian all of them have mixed up - Frunze, Kolchak, Trotsky, Denikin, Chapaev, Vrangel, Tukhachevsky, Yudenich, Blucher. All of them are declared equally good guys. And we must now forgive all to each other and to join up around our new leaders. IMHO most Russians had not more emotions about the Civil War heroes than Americans about their Civil War. It was too much time ago.
Last edited by Docent P on 04 Sep 2003 12:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Balrog » 05 Sep 2003 17:32

when i said that kornilov had a resemblence to lenin, it was not a racial slur, but an observation. not only were they both part tartar, but both small goatees and similar bearing.(they really do look alike to me...)

not to mention similiar personality traits of fierce discipline and determination.

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Post by Reigo » 07 Sep 2003 16:11

Docent P wrote:

Meanwhile the same propagandist cliches were widely spread in the newly created autonomies like the Baltic countries, Georgia and Poland. There local leaders (mostly chauvinists and leftists) saw their benefit in blaming the Whites for their "imperialism" and seeking an alliance with Lenin who unlike the Whites was always ready to "give" independence to everyone and to sign any agreement (although he was never going to keep any of his promises). In result the Whites saw so little support in their rear.


Let's take the example of Estonia. The White leaders (Kolchak) were ready to give autonomy. Not more. The Bolsheviks promised to give independence. So which one should one choose? Who could knew that the Bolsheviks don't keep their promises? If the Whites would have been smarter than the Bolsheviks, they would have had a chance to win the war. They boasted that after Petrograd they finish also of the annoying "potato-republic" Estonia. Of course unofficially - officialy they talked about constitutent assembly and other nice stuff. The North-Western government even recognised the Estonian republic. Only problem was that everybody knew that Judenich hated this government which was forced by the Allies. And nobody recognized this NW government, even not Kolchak. Actually the fighters for "Great and Undividable Russia" only gave water to the mill of the Baltic leftists and chauvinists. The result was that nobody really didn't want to help the Whites since with the White victory Estonia would have been again joined into Russia.

But still the Russian Whites were actually a bit helped by the Estonian military high command (which considered the Reds worse than the Whites), but propagandists like Shambarov simply don't tell you this because this doesn't fit to the picture of the evil Estonian chauvinistic Russian-eaters.


Although our friend Reigo has blamed this book as bullsh*y nevertheless I found it usefull at least for a base knowledge.


I don't know about other regions, but for the North-West Shambarov's book shouldn't be used even for a base knowledge. It's full of mistakes, fantasies and simply lies.

One of many examples: chapter about the assault on Petrograd in October, page 377: "What concerns the Estonian troops, then on the critical moment they just weren't on the sea-flank of the White Guards. The Reds without obstacles made a flanking movement there."

Well, this is a direct lie (even not a mistake). If you look at the used literature list in Shambarov's book then you see that he has used Rodzyanko's memoirs. If you look at Rodzyanko's memoirs you can read that it was the Estonian help which saved the Whites from this flanking manouvre. So Shambarov simply lies to show the Estonians as evil as possible.

I can add that the Estonian 4th Regiment counterattacked the Reds there and stopped their advance.

Rgds,

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Post by Docent P » 08 Sep 2003 14:15

>Who could knew that the Bolsheviks don't keep their promises?

Who could know???!!! 8O In January 1918 the Reds recognized "independent Ukraine". Their independence had been existing for two weeks until the Reds collected enough forces for the invasion. At the same period they "recognized" independent Finland, in several days Finland got a Red invasion as well. Meanwhile Lenin loudly promised not to intervene to "independent" Don's. In a couply of days a big Red squadron from Sevastopol assaulted on Rostov. After the assault forces were defeated by the Voluntary Army the Reds began new talks with the Cossaks - "guys, we don't want you to keep these generals on your territory; just kick them out and we will have peace forever". The Cossaks willingly agreed (except their leader Kaledin, who shot himself in protest) - and immediately the Reds invaded and conquered undefended Don. At the same days Red agitators "signed" a lot of "treaties" with the Kuban Rada, soon afterward their forces attacked Ekaterinodar from Novorossiysk. Etc. etc. etc. Absolutely EVERY agreement with the Reds finished in the typical way. I can't imagine that someone doubted Lenin's dirtyness afterward.

>They boasted that after Petrograd they finish also of the annoying "potato-republic" Estonia.

There were some drunk scums who were "saving Great Russia" in Tallinn's restarants. Instead of listening to every their word you should simply have brought them to the White forces' location and got to see how they would be executed for desertion.

>And nobody recognized this NW government, even not Kolchak.

All the acts of the NW government as well as Lianozov's authority to introduce Russia's position were officially confirmed by Yudenich. And Yudenich power was soon confirmed by Kolchak.

>but for the North-West Shambarov's book shouldn't be used even for a base knowledge

Ok, I agree. Rodzyanko's memoirs would be rather better.

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Post by Reigo » 11 Sep 2003 18:09

>Who could knew that the Bolsheviks don't keep their promises?

Who could know???!!! In January 1918 the Reds recognized "independent Ukraine". Their independence had been existing for two weeks until the Reds collected enough forces for the invasion. At the same period they "recognized" independent Finland, in several days Finland got a Red invasion as well. Meanwhile Lenin loudly promised not to intervene to "independent" Don's. In a couply of days a big Red squadron from Sevastopol assaulted on Rostov. After the assault forces were defeated by the Voluntary Army the Reds began new talks with the Cossaks - "guys, we don't want you to keep these generals on your territory; just kick them out and we will have peace forever". The Cossaks willingly agreed (except their leader Kaledin, who shot himself in protest) - and immediately the Reds invaded and conquered undefended Don. At the same days Red agitators "signed" a lot of "treaties" with the Kuban Rada, soon afterward their forces attacked Ekaterinodar from Novorossiysk. Etc. etc. etc. Absolutely EVERY agreement with the Reds finished in the typical way. I can't imagine that someone doubted Lenin's dirtyness afterward.


It was hoped that Red Russia, which is isolated, has much less chance to finish off Estonia than the White Russia, which is supported by all the Allies.

>They boasted that after Petrograd they finish also of the annoying "potato-republic" Estonia.

There were some drunk scums who were "saving Great Russia" in Tallinn's restarants. Instead of listening to every their word you should simply have brought them to the White forces' location and got to see how they would be executed for desertion.


Well, it's claimed that Yudenich himself said things about liquidating Estonia during the second assault on Petrograd. Also in Gershelman's memoirs (he was a front officer in the NW army) it is said that the front was monarhistic. Monarhistic equals basically "Great and Undivided." I have intelligence reports of the 1st Estonian division (from archive). The information about Whites is not pleasant: the front was quite anti-Estonian, officers (especially the Baltic Germans) agitated lower ranks against the Estonian state. True - undiciplined and leftist officers and soldiers of the Estonian army were also guilty about the bad relations between Estonians and Russians, but the basic problem was that the Whites were hostile to the Estionian state and tolerated it at the moment only because they didn't had any other option. At least the situation was seen so by the Estonian political circles.

>And nobody recognized this NW government, even not Kolchak.

All the acts of the NW government as well as Lianozov's authority to introduce Russia's position were officially confirmed by Yudenich. And Yudenich power was soon confirmed by Kolchak.


The problem was that Yudenich was forced to accept the NW government since the Allies threatened to cut off help. The recognition of Estonia was also forced by the British who obviously hoped that the Estonians will then actively help the Whites.

Actually Yudenich composed a new government in October on the peak of his success. The NW government was to be left without any influence (it didn't have it much even before - the military command acted constantly against it).

>but for the North-West Shambarov's book shouldn't be used even for a base knowledge

Ok, I agree. Rodzyanko's memoirs would be rather better.


Memoirs usually are not a good source if you want to find objective information. Rodzyanko quite often presents information according to his bias. The best book in Russian on the topic is so far Smolin's. True, it also contains some strange fantasies, but I still suggest it.


Rgds,

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Post by Balrog » 16 Sep 2003 16:39

yes, i am still looking for more photos of general kornilov and his shock units. anyone with close up images of the kornilov shock brigade badges or any other white russian unit badges or medals, please post them.

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Post by Retro » 18 Sep 2003 16:47

On this side http://whiteforce.newmail.ru/orden.htm#orden
are white medals and badges, but I can’t translate russian transryption on englisch, sorry

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Post by Docent P » 19 Sep 2003 14:02

>Well, it's claimed that Yudenich himself said things about liquidating Estonia during the second assault on Petrograd.

I have never heard about. It's interesting that meanwhile the Whites were expressing many blames on the British policy (quite reasonably IMHO) and especially on Marsh and Gof personally. But it could hardly mean that they had any agreesive plans about the UK.

>...it is said that the front was monarhistic. Monarhistic equals basically "Great and Undivided.

I have no possibility to read G.'s memoirs so I can't comment him yet. But you may know that generally the White leaders distinguished themselves as very anti-monarchistic minded. The NW Army wasn't rather different. For example:

Yudenich signed the telegram requiring Nicholay II to resign in Feb 1917. Then he had excellent relations with General Mannerheim - may be M. was also supporter of the idea of "Great and Undividable"?

General Rodzyanko's uncle, being the head of the Duma, led the unti-monarchist revolution, he was the first Russian governor after the Tzar, he was a close friend of Guchkov and a key participator in the Guchkov's conspiracy aimed against monarchy.

Also the main spokesman of the NW Army - General Krasnov - had been the Ataman of the Great Don. At that period he: 1 declared Don an independent state, 3 adopted his own state anthem, flag and emblem, 3 got official recognition of his state from the Germans, 4 recognized independent Ukraine and immediately started a conflict with them. So he hardly looked as a "Great and Undividable" supporter, didn't he?

And at last the official declaration of the NW Army gives a clear idea in the first paragraph: no return to the old [monarchist] form of ruling. In the last paragraph it says: recognition of every national independency basing on their participation in the anti-Communist fight.

>The NW government was to be left without any influence (it didn't have it much even before - the military command acted constantly against it).

I don't think it was because of the Army's command's evil willing. Actually the problem was with the territory where the NW government could establish their influence. The liberated Russian territory had been still enough secured while the Estonians of course wouldn't have wanted to see any Russian government influence in Revel'.

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>yes, i am still looking for more photos of general kornilov

These are some I've found in the Net:

Image
Kornilov and Dukhonin

Image

Image

Image

Image
Kornilov's body, digged out of the grave by the comrades.

It's just interesting to notice that the place where Kornilov was initially buried is still remaining well-known for locals. I visited it several years ago (it's the former village of Elisavetinskaya, now the nothern outskirt of Krasnodar) and was told by some guys about it.

After he was buried the Whites carefully camouflaged the grave but it didn't help. The Reds captured a nurse from the Voluntary Army, who after brutal tortures called the place of the Kornilov's grave. The Comrades imediatelly digged the body out, vondalized at him - took off his clothes, made photos, hang the body on a tree, jumped over it, then cutted the body apart, burned the pieces and
threw the charred bones to a dump site. Afterward they conducted the comedy ceremony of "funeral", making a "funeral procession" of robbers who were robbing on their way with screams: "give money for Kornilov's commemoration".

After the Whites returned they established a big cross at the place of the destroyed grave.

>any other white russian unit badges or medals, please post them.

See here:
http://www.trio.ru/antika/belarmy/opredl01.htm
Last edited by Docent P on 22 Sep 2003 05:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Balrog » 19 Sep 2003 14:05

what role did general brusilov play in the white army? all i have read about him was that he was some kind of army inspector general.

did he ever command white russian troops in battle, or was he a staff officer in the white army? what white russian units did he serve with? i would like to know about his white army activities. it seems it would have been a waste of his talents to place him in a staff position and not allow him to command soldiers in the civil war.


when did he escape russia?

does anyone have photos of general brusilov?

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Post by Balrog » 19 Sep 2003 14:28

i've decided to delete this post, and move it to a new thread. ( i don't want to throw the white russian thread off track.)

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Post by Balrog » 19 Sep 2003 14:41

what role did any of the romanov grand dukes play in the white civil war?

what role did grand duke nicholas play. (the czar's uncle and former commander of czarist amies until 1915) did grand duke nicholas ever command white russian soldiers? when did he escape russia? how was grand duke nicholas looked upon by the white russian commanders?

was there any group of generals or group of officers that looked to restoration of the romanov's at all? the romanov's seemed to be the leaders of the white expatriate russian community in the 1920's, i would think that indicated some influence over at least a portion of the white officer corps.

i remember the reasoning behind the czar's murder was lenin deciding that if the whites freed nicholas II from bolshevik captivity it would provide a living banner for the whites to rally around.

the czar and his family were murdered just 2 or 3 days before the whites liberated the town he was being held prisoner in. all the whites found was the czar's spainel dog named joy crying on the front steps of the house of "special purpose" trying to get back inside.

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