Russian Military losses

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Darrin
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Russian Military losses

Post by Darrin » 22 Apr 2004 19:26

This is a series of scans from kriovsheevs book. All are english traslation of his actual words to begin with. The first one is his editors note and shows who prepared the document. The people who prepared it could hardly be called unbiased. It seems these people were not trained to anylize historical documents.
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Darrin
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Post by Darrin » 22 Apr 2004 19:53

This second page of kriovsheevs own introduction. It describes when and and for who the report was prepared. Both upper reaches of the communist party and during the tail end of communist era. Neither of which should expect a totally unbiased report to be expected.

At the bottom he decribes his definiton for use of irrecoverable losses. It includes all those known by quanity to have died. It also includes although seperated out as POWs who returned or died from captivity.
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Darrin
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Post by Darrin » 22 Apr 2004 19:58

P5 of kriovsheevs introduction. Even the authors themslves admit thier study was not 100% correct and complete as certain other people would like to claim.
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Last edited by Darrin on 22 Apr 2004 21:58, edited 1 time in total.

Michael Kenny
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Post by Michael Kenny » 22 Apr 2004 20:20

Already significant portions of information between the first 2 pages posted (not suited to Darrin) have been omitted. Rather than accept the books explaination for the figures he simply dismisses them as 'biased' (i.e. they dont support his distorting of the tables)
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Darrin
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Post by Darrin » 22 Apr 2004 21:54

p84 top its clear in the begining of the first paragraph they are just adding up reported front casulties. They are not looking at the individual central card reporting system which might give less info about date, place, unit and cas type.
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Darrin
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Post by Darrin » 22 Apr 2004 22:09

p84 bottom. All the way through they talk about unrecorded irreplacable looses. That they had to estimate yet at no time do they explain any of thier reasoning or give any sources. In fact they even admit that these unrecorded losses as reported by them were not entirly correcct.
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Darrin
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Post by Darrin » 22 Apr 2004 22:12

p 85 This table shows what irecoverable losses the soviets had by category. Notice it says 11.5 mil irrecoverable losses. Since 2.8 mil people retruned either durung or after the war the actual maximum deaths ie permanent losses is 8.7 million. This includes not only all reported deaths for ALL reasons but also a huge number of people who disapperd never to be heard again. Around 1.9 milllon above and beyond the offical 6.8 mil dead. This represents a 30% increase in non rep dead over offical dead.

Its also slightly interesting to note that the unrecorderd IR I mentioned earlier at 1.2 million are dwarfed by the unreported dead. The unreported dead are actually 50% larger then the unrecorded IR.
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Darrin
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Post by Darrin » 22 Apr 2004 22:43

p230 It should be obvious to anyone from reading the first two paragraphs that the numbers kiroshev uses has no names adjacent to it for even known dead. Any idea that kirosheevs numbers are based on the exact same archives as the indiviuual card indexes is total fantasy.

The russians at this point had no idea of the exact names and they were in the process of completeing a similar study to get this info. The authors even go on to say that the new study will make it more accurte to determine the total number of soviet losses.
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Michate
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Post by Michate » 23 Apr 2004 12:59

Thanks for joining the text scans, although I am not impressed by your comments.

Darrin
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Post by Darrin » 23 Apr 2004 14:30

He essentially adds togeather all the front cas reports to get his total cas. He even includes all the fronts in the book from p164 to p218. The next three post are an examlpe the baltic front during the last 539 days of the war. On p192 and 193 in his book.
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Darrin
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Post by Darrin » 23 Apr 2004 14:38

The last one broke cas down by type and rank giving percentages for each and every type and rank. It even gives at least from a large group of cas together avg monthly losses expressed as a percentage.
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Darrin
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Post by Darrin » 23 Apr 2004 14:52

This second and third chart which are the same just broken down over 2 pages. This chart breaks the cas from above down the exact same way as above but instead of rank it divides them into years.
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Karri
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Post by Karri » 23 Apr 2004 15:49

Copyrighted material?

Darrin
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Post by Darrin » 23 Apr 2004 18:12

Kriovsheev did have a seperate check that in this table. He says 34.5 mil troops served in the army during the war. Since 21.6 mil left for one reason or another during the war we should have 12.9 milion at the end of the war. Then you look at the end of the war they had 12.8 million which is extemly close to what he predicted. Within 1% while this seems impressive it almost seems too impresive for the russian who had such a hard time keeping such exact track of thier casulties.

Its also interesting to point out the unrecorded cas from Table 56 above of 1.2 mil is strangly absent from this new table. In truth if we are to believe all his numbers there were acccurte then it would be 34.5-21.7 which equaels 12.8. Then subtract the extra est unrecorded cas 12.8 - 1.2 = 11.6 mil. Which means the number of troops at the end of the war is over a MILLION higher then it should have been???

Somthing is obviously wrong in his numbers.

One of my big complaint with this book is a total lack of refereces. For the 200 page WWII section he has less than 30 refererances of which less than 10 were to actual rus primary archives of any sort.
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Michael Kenny
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Post by Michael Kenny » 23 Apr 2004 18:41

Quote:

"One of my big complaint with this book is a total lack of refereces. For the 200 page WWII section he has less than 30 refererances of which less than 10 were to actual rus primary archives of any sort"

Now I know you brought this up before and you were informed that The Russian version of the book had all the Archive references in it and it was a decision by the English Publishers to omit them.
Your criticism on this point is totaly spurious because you choose to ignore this fact and repeat accusations of some great conspiracy theory that seems to exist only in your imagination.

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