Russian Military losses

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thorwald77
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 05 Jul 2018 17:36

Where it was possible to reconstruct annual totals or figures for individual operations which would be comparable with Krivosheev I did it.
Thanks Art for getting back to me, now I have better understanding of the problem. Lets hope the researchers at Pamyat-naroda will tie this out in the future. Thanks again for putting in the time to work on this problem

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 31 Jul 2018 21:56

Is there any breakdown of civilian losses into groups such as those who died in German occupied areas, famine, military operations, sickness & disease, famine in Soviet areas, etc

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thorwald77
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 31 Jul 2018 23:18

Pavel Polian 1996 From Жертвы двух диктатур.
Extraordinary State Commission March 1946
Republic---[*]Civilians Killed[*] [*]POW Dead[*] [*]Forced Labor Dead[*] [*]Total[*]
Russia [*] 655,825 [*] [*]1,125,605[*] [*]1,269,189[*] xx [*]3,050,619 [*]
Ukraine xx 3,178,084 xx 1,318,463 xx 2,023,112 xx [*]6,519,659 xx
Byeloruss xx1,360,034 xx 838,243 xx [*]373,698 xx [*] 2,571,975 xx
Latvia xx 313,798 xx 330,032 xx 248,873 xx xx 892,703 xx
Lithuania xx 436,535 xx 229,737 xx 36,540 xx xx 702,812 xx
Estonia [*]61,307[*] [*] 64,000 [*] [*]125,307 [*]
Moldova [*]61,246 [*] 2,603 [*] [*]47,242 [*] [*] 111,091 [*]
karo finn [*]8,028 [*] [*] 3,600[*] [*] 142[*] [*]11,770
TOTALS [*] 6,074,857 [*] [*] 3,912,283[*] [*] 3,998,796 [*] [*]13,985,936[*]
Losses in Leningrad siege 641,803 famine and 16,747 artillery fire

The following is my own research not from Жертвы двух диктатур
1946 Eastmates
The POW dead of 3.912 K is the balance of military dead not included in the 8,668,400 of Krivosheev, The remaining balance of 994,300 convicted and 267,400 died of sickness not in these figures, but were included with the total military war dead of 13.841 million.

The Forced Labor Dead of 3.998 million is really a plug to the total war dead to 24 million. Add the 994.3K convicted and 267.K died of sickness will balance the population. The Jun 1941 population was 199.920K, 1.4 million were in territory returned to Poland and ZaKarpathia was 725K. That gives us a base population of 199,250 million. 25.250 million were the estimated war dead, leaving an estimated ending population of 174 million, which was the figure given to Biraben in 1957 by the Soviets.

Balance of the estimated population in 1946,

The summary 8.668 Krivosheev+3.912"POWs"+7.420"civilians= 20 million, That was the number on file in 1961 that they gave Khrushchev.

The total of 7,420 million civilian dead in the current Russian data includes 6.074 million civilians Killed, 658,000 dead in Leningrad and 688,000 forced labor dead( ie. missing in Germany). The 6.074 million civilians killed more than likely includes 375,000 civilians who were not repatriated by March 1946

Later I Will post the details by Oblast separately -Stay tuned
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 31 Jul 2018 23:21

Russia March 1946 data
OBLAST Civilians Killed
Krasnadar 48,560
Stravopol 31,645
Ashtrakan 1,276
Bryansk 76,110
Volonskya 36,107
Voronezh 4,911
Kalinin 40,876
Kaluga 5,351
Kursk 18,099
Leningrad 62,833
Moscow 2,054
Novogrod 14,703
Orel 4,243
Pskov 19,852
Rostov 73,199
Ryazan 61
Smolensk 87,026
Stalingrad 38,554
Tambor 105
Tula 371
Yaroslav 222
Kransnodar 2,183
Crimea 86,943
N Ossetia 75

Total Russia 655,359

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thorwald77
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 31 Jul 2018 23:32

Ukraine March 1946 data
OBLAST Civilians Killed
Vinnitsa 169,260
Lutsk/volyn 117,549
Voroshilovgrad 18,221
Dnepropetrovsk 78,118
Dragobychskya(Lutsk-Volyn) 65,440
Zhitomirskya 171,245
Zaporozh'ye 66,745
Izmailovskya 5,188
Khmel'nitskiy 213,135
Kiev 146,923
Kirovograd 40,274
Liviv 475,435
Nikolayev 74,662
Odessa 212,702
Poltava 113,766
Rovno 175,133
Stalinskaya 174,416
Stanisslav 223,920
Sumy 43,731
Ternopol' 172,357
Khar'kov 256,040
Kherson 20,141
Chernigov 127,778
Chernovtsy 15,895
Unidentified 10
Total 3,178,084

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thorwald77
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 31 Jul 2018 23:37

Bealrus March 1946 data
OBLAST Civilians Killed
Baranoichi 181,179
Bobrusk 82,194
Brest 159,526
Vitbesk 151,421
Gomel 53,630
Horodna 111,203
Minsk 268,324
Mogliev 71,602
Molodocheno 42,373
Pinsk 95,390
Polesskya 37,981
Polotsaya 105,211

TOTAL 1,360,034

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thorwald77
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 31 Jul 2018 23:43

Ludslie Poteri 1995 Current Russian Data
Civilian Killed
Russia 1,800,000
Ukraine 3,256,000
Byelorussia 1,547,000
Latvia 313,800
Lithuania 370,000
Estonia 61,307
Moldova 64,000
karo finn 8,028
Civilians Killed 7,420,135

Forced Labor Dead 2,164,313
Famine, Disease 4,100,000
Total 13,684,448
I have not seen this data broken out by Oblast.

Forced Labor Dead The 2.164 million Forced Labor Dead is really part of the balance of military casualties not in Krivosheev. The remaining 2.987 million is not mentioned in Russian published sources

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 31 Jul 2018 23:51

Total Soviet War Dead -My estimate

Data from Krivosheev study corrected

KIA 5,187,190
Far East 12,037
Non Combat deaths 555,500
DOW 1,100,327
POW 3,222,000 (from P. Polian)
MIA 500,000
Deserters German forces 212,400
Remained in west 3/1946 190,716
Border troops 159,100
Sick Died in Hospital 267,394
Convicts executed 135,000
Convicts Penal units 422,700
Convicts In prison 436,600
Sent to hospital 1,046,000
Civilian employees 403,200
Total Military dead and missing 13,850,164

Civilians killed 7,420,379
Famine & Disease 4,100,000
Increase in infant mortality 1,300,000
Total 26,670,543

Total 13,850,164 less Sent to hospital 1,046,000 and Civilian employees 403,200 equals 12,400,964 which agrees with Krivosheev's statement re:records of names at military commissariats 12,400,900

Famine and Disease is and estimated 6% of occupied USSR 68 million ADK however believes 8-9 million died due the worsening of conditions in entire USSR.

IMO The Total civilians may include up to 1 million in Leningrad and 300,000-400,000 as forced labor. The balance of 6 million may include missing persons deported by Soviets or Poles who fled during the war. Just look at the Oblasts in the territory the Soviets occupied in 1939-40, the numbers seem way too high to account for German massacres.
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 01 Aug 2018 00:04

Total Soviet War Dead

Data from ADK study

The balance of war dead on ADK page 118 Naselanie that balances the population is 26,668,000 assuming that the natural increase is 500,000, 29,000 more that Krivosheev. This may be 12,000 in the Far East, 14,000 non combat dead and 3,000 died of wounds. The cutoff for the Krivosheev data may be 1 July 1945 IMO

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 01 Aug 2018 00:15

Soviet War Dead -Analysis of 2.164 million "forced labor dead"

Data from Krivosheev study

KIA 5,187,190
Non Combat deaths 541,920
DOW 1,100,327
POW/MIA 4,455,620
Reservists captured 500,000
Recovered POWs (2,016,490)
Remained in west 179,918
Border troops 159,100
Reservists not inducted 1,000,000
Sick Died in Hospital 267,394
Convicts executed 135,000
Convicts Penal units 422,700 422,700
Far East 12,037
Total 11,944,716

8.668.000 Krivosheev+1,100,300 DOW +12,000 Far East+2.164.300 "forced labor"=11,944,600

Krivosheev KIA 5,187K, Non Combat 542K, 4.955K POW/MIA/Reservists less 2.016K released = the 8.668K

The forced labor breakout --Remained in west 180K, Border troops 159K, Reservists not inducted 1.000K , convicts 558K, Sick 267K=2.164K

The remaining balance of 436K in prison, 1.046K sent to hospital and 403K civilians in military service will give us a grand total of 13,829 million military war dead.

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thorwald77
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 01 Aug 2018 00:43

I heard about Soviet military prisons from German POWs years ago. A German from Slovakia survived because he was a construction worker who spoke Slovak. Anyway when he came to the camp he said that behind the wire were Russians who were locked up for desertion. The Soviet commandant who gave them the intro to the camp was a Soviet German officer, he said either you are with us or against us and then he put his hand to his throat. This German POW did well, the Russians liked him because he was a good worker. He married a Ukrainian woman and went back later to visit Brezhnev's USSR

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 01 Aug 2018 03:04

Are there any estimates as to the number of civilians who died under German occupation? I did see a figure of 1.3 million Russian Jews included in the Holocaust figures. Also are the Famine figures Soviet citizens who died under German occupation or who died in Soviet Union from effects of war or a combined total?

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 01 Aug 2018 04:19

I have posted the Soviet-Russian figures above. Let me repeat
Ludslie Poteri 1995 Current Russian Data
Civilian Killed
Russia 1,800,000
Ukraine 3,256,000
Byelorussia 1,547,000
Latvia 313,800
Lithuania 370,000
Estonia 61,307
Moldova 64,000
karo finn 8,028
Civilians Killed 7,420,135

Forced Labor Dead 2,164,313 -Really balance military not in Krivoshev
Famine, Disease 4,100,000
Total 13,684,448

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 01 Aug 2018 04:49

German historian Dieter Pohl puts civilians in partisan war at 850,000 and 1 million deaths in hunger plan. Also 2.5 million Jews and 3 million POWS

Historian Zmeskov puts civilian toll at 4.5 million including Jews.

The best and the brightest historians in the west can't offer a rational explanation of the 27 million war dead in the USSR, most treat the 8.7 million of Krivosheev as correct. In Russia they present the figures from March 1946. это все

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by mars » 01 Aug 2018 14:31

thorwald77 wrote:
01 Aug 2018 04:49
German historian Dieter Pohl puts civilians in partisan war at 850,000 and 1 million deaths in hunger plan. Also 2.5 million Jews and 3 million POWS

Historian Zmeskov puts civilian toll at 4.5 million including Jews.

The best and the brightest historians in the west can't offer a rational explanation of the 27 million war dead in the USSR, most treat the 8.7 million of Krivosheev as correct. In Russia they present the figures from March 1946. это все
Were the 8.7 millions military death only ?

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