Russian Military losses

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thorwald77
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 01 Aug 2018 23:28

Were the 8.7 millions military death only ?
Many historians cite Krivosheev's figure of 8,668 million military, a few like Christian Hartmann claim 11.4 million.

Please review my recent post above Data from Krivosheev study corrected Go down the list and you decide what the war dead are.

In his book Krivosheev gives the detailed losses of the fronts and fleets: Here are the totals
  • Killed in Action 5,184,749
  • Non Combat Deaths 534,273
  • MIA/POWs 4,452,336
  • Pows returned 1,369,849
  • Total 8,801,509
Wounded were 15,201, 521. I assume that 7.25% die which gives us 1.102 million died of wounds.

Grand Total from the detailed schedules in Krivosheev's study is 9.9 million.

The 8.668 million apparently excludes 1.102 million died of wounds and 150,000 border troops.

The higher number of 11.4 million includes 1.4 million including 750,000 reservists who never were combat units, 212,400 deserters who died in German service, 180,000 deserters that emigrated after the war and 267,400 who died of sickness.

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Art » 02 Aug 2018 08:25

Everything is simple. Krivosheev gives casualties of the Army, Navy and NKVD troops as:
5 226 800 killed in action
1 102 800 dead of wounds
555 500 non-battle deaths
1 783 300 missing and not recovered (including emigration)
total 8 668 400 "demographic losses" or death and emigrants simply speaking.
Returning POWs, deserters ans stragglers were not counted as "demographic losses". Accuracy of these numbers is a separate issue.

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thorwald77
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 02 Aug 2018 13:44

Art the schedule in Krivosheev showing the 8,668,400 is not directly related to the detailed information in the body of the book. The 8.668k when combined with the 3.912k pows and 7.420k civilian dead equals 20 million. Moiseev assumed that the 8.668k would be combined with the 3.912k and 7.420k to equal the boilerplate figure of 20 million. The 8.668k and 3.912k were allocations that forced the number to 20 million when combined with the 7.420k. The Krivosheev study on the other hand was an allocation by the General Staff in 1966-68 to show only those casualties of the field forces and to exclude those reservists not in combat forces, deserters, convicted personnel, civilian employees and those that died of sickness. The 1966-68 study assumed that 75% of the POWS and MIA 6.059k X .75= 4,559k. The MIA were 500,000 and the balance 4,059,000 were POWs. POW dead were 3.222k assuming 75% were in our POW allocation we have 2.450K POW dead and 500k MIA. The detailed schedules for the Armies and Fleets in the General Staff study exclude the 159k border troops and show 4.452 POWs/MIA.

The General Staff/Krivosheev study excludes 800,000 POWS and 159,000 border troops. Their allocation,listed in the details of the fronts and fleets, was 5.740k killed,1.100 k died of wounds, 500k MIA and 2.450k POW dead. Total for the Armies and Fleets 9.790k

Art don't get confused by the schedule showing 8,668,400, that is Дезинформа́ция. Put the details of the Armies and Fleets on a spreadsheet. We see that 75% of the 6.059k POWS and MIA are in the study 4.559K less 104,000 border troops, 4.455K. They list 5.185k KIA 535k Other deaths Add in 1.100k died of wounds and 159,000 border troops. The POW/MIA allocation is an educated guess. 500kMIA and 75% of the 3.950k POWS less 1.500k released gives us c.2.450k POW dead
  • Summary losses Combat Units
  • KIA 5,187K
  • Other deaths 535K
  • Died of Wounds 1.100K
  • Border troops 159K
  • MIA 500K
  • POW dead 2.450k
  • Total 9.929k
  • Excluded Losses
  • POW dead reservists 800k
  • Deserters to West March 1946 190k
  • Deserters to Germans 212k
  • Died Sickness 267k
  • Convicted 994k
  • Sent to hospital 1,046k
  • Civilian workers 403k
  • Total excluded 3.912K
Art you see the excluded is 3.912K add the 9.929K and we have 13.841k total war dead. IMO they forced the 8.668k in order to agree to the 20 million war dead. The number makes no sense, Krivosheev's deductions were made to agree with the figure needed to arrive at Khrushchev's 20 million

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Stiltzkin » 02 Aug 2018 16:52

Art you see the excluded is 3.912K add the 9.929K and we have 13.841k total war dead. IMO they forced the 8.668k in order to agree to the 20 million war dead. The number makes no sense, Krivosheev's deductions were made to agree with the figure needed to arrive at Khrushchev's 20 million
Yes, this makes significantly more sense.

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Art » 02 Aug 2018 17:34

thorwald77 wrote:
02 Aug 2018 13:44
The 8.668k when combined with the 3.912k pows and 7.420k civilian dead equals 20 million.
8.7 when combined with 12 months and 7 deadly sins equals 27.7 or almost exactly 27 million total losses according to Anrdeyev, Darskiy, and Kharkova. Neither calculation makes much sense though. Once again Krivosheev's point is simple: there were 27 million total demographic losses, of them 8.7 in the armed forces. That is what the book says quite equivocally. You can make alternative estimates, but you must understand that they are different from Krivosheev.
The 1966-68 study assumed that 75% of the POWS and MIA 6.059k X .75= 4,559k.
The General Staff/Krivosheev study excludes 800,000 POWS
Their allocation, listed in the details of the fronts and fleets, was ... 2.450k POW dead.
Frankly speaking I don't understand where these numbers are from.

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by ljadw » 03 Aug 2018 06:26

Art wrote:
02 Aug 2018 08:25
Everything is simple. Krivosheev gives casualties of the Army, Navy and NKVD troops as:
5 226 800 killed in action
1 102 800 dead of wounds
555 500 non-battle deaths
1 783 300 missing and not recovered (including emigration)
total 8 668 400 "demographic losses" or death and emigrants simply speaking.
Returning POWs, deserters ans stragglers were not counted as "demographic losses". Accuracy of these numbers is a separate issue.
Demographic losses and MIA are not war dead .The war dead are some 6,9 million

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thorwald77
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 03 Aug 2018 16:10

Frankly speaking I don't understand where these numbers are from.
POW reconciliation
  • POWs and MIA 4,559,000 Krivosheev(93) p338
  • Captured Reservists 500,000 Krivosheev(93) p339
  • Balance of those captured 1,000,000 Krivosheev(93) p339
  • Captured Border Troops 104,000 Krivosheev(93) p130
  • Released by the Germans (823,000)Krivosheev(93) p334
  • POW deaths (3,222,000) Polian 2001
  • POWs freeded (2,016,000)Krivosheev(2001) p463
  • Balance -0-
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Pavel Polian 2001 Demoscope 15/16 2001- Военнопленные(POWS)
  • Dead in camps 1,981
  • Executed 473
  • Died in transit 768
  • Total POW deaths 3,222
Note that Krivosheev in 1993ed. mentioned those captured in occupied territory at 1 million but in the 2001.ed he omitted this figure.

The reconciliation does not add due to rounding.

According to Krivosheev General Staff records put the POWs/MIA at 3.396 million. The General Staff apparently plugged in an additional 2,663 million to tie out to the number conscripted.
Last edited by thorwald77 on 03 Aug 2018 23:29, edited 2 times in total.

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thorwald77
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 03 Aug 2018 18:42

Frankly speaking I don't understand where these numbers are from.
: :o

Total dead missing of those conscripted
  • KIA 5,187,200
  • Non Combat deaths 555,500
  • DOW 1,100,300
  • Border troops 159,100
  • POW deaths 3,222,000
  • MIA 500,000
  • Deserters in German Forces 215,000
  • Remained in west 180,000
  • Died of Sickness 267,400
  • Convicts executed 135,000
  • Convicts Penal units 422,700
  • Total to balance conscripted 11,944,100
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Allocation of Combat Dead and missing
  • KIA 5,187,200
  • Non Combat deaths 555,500
  • DOW 1,102,800
  • Border troops 159,000
  • POW deaths @ 75% 2,417,000
  • MIA 500,000
  • Total combat dead/MIA 9,921,600
POW deaths @ 75% 3,222,000 X.75%= 2,417,000
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Allocation of Combat Dead and missing
based on details for Army groups-Fleets in Krivosheev
  • KIA 5,184,749
  • Non Combat deaths 534,273
  • Total POW/MIA 4,452,336
  • Subtotal for Army groups-Fleets 10,171,378
  • Conscripted reservists 500,000
  • Released POWs(2,015,000)
  • Border troops 159,100
  • Died Wounds 1,100,300
  • Total combat dead/MIA 9,915,658
The details for each of Army groups-Fleets is listed in Krivosheev. Put his numbers on a spreadsheet.
Last edited by thorwald77 on 03 Aug 2018 22:56, edited 2 times in total.

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thorwald77
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 03 Aug 2018 21:50

Explanation of Krivosheev's 8,668,000

Krivosheev's casualties
  • KIA 5,187,000
  • Non Combat deaths 542,000
  • POWS/MIA 4,455,000
  • Reservists captured 500,000
  • Surviving POWs 1945 (2,016,000)
  • Red Army-Navy losses 8,668,000

What he left out
  • POWs who remained in west 180,000
  • Died of wounds 1,100,000
  • Far east 12,000
  • Border troops 159,000
  • Remaining balance POWS/MIA 1,000,000
  • Died Sickness 267,000
  • Convicts executed 135,000
  • Convicts Penal units 423,000
  • Total Irreplaceable losses 11,944,000

Remaining balance of POWS/MIA 1,000,000 can be explained in Krivosheev's 1993 edition(page339). To agree to the balance of 3,222,000 POW deaths we need an additional 785,000 captured POWs. The balance was in the 1993 edition (page 392), 215,000 Vlasovite deaths were listed by Krivosheev, this was omitted in the in 2001 edition. IMO someone caught this after publication in 1993 and made Krivosheev delete it in 2001.

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Art » 04 Aug 2018 08:49

ljadw wrote:
03 Aug 2018 06:26
Demographic losses and MIA are not war dead .
Prisoners dying in captivity are.

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Art » 04 Aug 2018 09:03

thorwald77 wrote:
03 Aug 2018 21:50
Explanation of Krivosheev's 8,668,000
Again, the correct variant is what I've posted above. It's all explained in a quite simple manner in the book. Deserters (I wonder, where you read "to the Germans"), stragglers, convicts etc are not war dead/demographic losses. Deaths of sickness are partly included in non-battle casualties. Non-repatriated POWs are counted as "demographic losses". Casualties of NKVD troops are explicitly included in Kivosheev's total. Completeness of Krivosheev's estimate is another issue, which I'm not discussing here.

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 04 Aug 2018 13:40

Completeness of Krivosheev's estimate is another issue, which I'm not discussing here.
I understand Art. I live in the USA, not Russia :idea:

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 04 Aug 2018 15:18

Article debunking the 42 million war dead estimate of 2017:
https://www.academia.edu/33190310/Count ... 27_Million

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 04 Aug 2018 15:32

Martin Gilbert puts Jewish civilian deaths at 1 million in USSR pre-1939 and a further 1.5 million in post 1939 territories so giving a total of 2.5 million Jewish deaths in the Holocaust within 1941 USSR borders.

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Stiltzkin » 04 Aug 2018 23:11

but you must understand that they are different from Krivosheev.
They actually do not contradict each other. I will elaborate what he is trying to say: He is implementing his research into the calculation, this is not just about interpreting Krivosheevs work as "envisioned" or listed in his book, but rather what he excludes - to comment on the non essential persistency. It is impossible that the Soviet forces distribution of casualties would be so different to all other participants of WW2 and existing statistical constants. You cannot, out of over 5 million fallen, expect 8.7m total demographic losses. The number of deaths from MIA, POW and DoD/DoW alone exceeds this number, with all late registrations up to 46 or 47 this number would further increase.

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