Russian Military losses

[Hamburg44]

Gents,

I found an interesting artikel with relation to this topic.

http://asya.pereltsvaig.com/2017/05/08/ ... ex-ratios/

The author argues, that after-war-sex ratios between in ww2 mobilized men and women, are not absolutly worser

in former german occupied oblasts as in unoccupied oblasts.

This fact might lead to the following conclusion:

female warrelated civillian losses in occupied areas might be were comparable to corresponding losses in unoccupied areas.



with regards

hamburg 44

[Stiltzkin]

http://asya.pereltsvaig.com/2017/05/08/ ... ex-ratios/

Nothing surprising there, this also fits the length of occupation (in days), well. Belarus and Ukraine were deceisive in the replacement of sustained losses in the period of 41-43. Germany could not extract such manpower out of their occupied territories, neither in the West nor East. The reason of their defeat.

[ljadw]

http://asya.pereltsvaig.com/2017/05/08/ ... ex-ratios/

Nothing surprising there, this also fits the length of occupation (in days), well. Belarus and Ukraine were deceisive in the replacement of sustained losses in the period of 41-43.

No : the liberation of Belarus and Ukraine had only a small effect in the replacement of the sustained losses between 41/43 ,as most fighting able males were already transported to the non occupied parts of the SU : it took the Germans 5 months to occupy Ukraine .
From this forum :the number of mobilised men in the SU after 22 June 1941 .
June 22 to May 1 1942 :15.384.837
May 1 to December 31 1942 :5.328.392
January 1 1943 to December 31 1943 :5.901.436
January 1 1944 to December 31 1944 :4.646.250
1945 : 551.342
Total :31.812.158 of whom only 5.2 million were mobilised after the liberation of Ukraine,which is only a third of those who were mobilised in the period that Ukraine was occupied .

[Art]

No : the liberation of Belarus and Ukraine had only a small effect in the replacement of the sustained losses between 41/43 ,as most fighting able males were already transported to the non occupied parts of the SU

Comrade Schadenko told otherwise:
viewtopic.php?p=2101391#p2101391

[thorwald77]

that after-war-sex ratios between in ww2 mobilized men and women, are not absolutly worser in former german occupied oblasts as in unoccupied oblasts.

We have to take into accounts the post war population transfers:

1-Poles who left USSR 2.136 million (according to 1950 Polish census, not Soviet figure of 1.526 million)
2-2nd Emigration 452,000( IMO built into 26.6 million war dead, not included in 622,000. Zmeskov was wrong, 170,000 difference were not Germans and Romanians)
3-Post war deportations from West Ukraine, Baltics and Moldova, some returned after 1956 but some remained in Siberia.
4-Post war additions to Ukrainian population 725,400 Zakarpathia and 1.1 million in Crimea
5-The unknown balance of those who were evacuated during the war 1941 and remained in the east.
6-The unknown balance of those Russians who were resettled(after 1945) in the annexed territories(1939-40), administrators and police. The 1959 census shows an increase of Russians in the annexed territories(1939-40).

[thorwald77]

Where's the rest?

I put Krivosheev's data on an Excel spreadsheet, the Armies and Fleets add down to 10,171,358 irrecoverable losses. He has a list of 94 battles that add down to 7,822,439. There is a difference of 2,348,919, Where's the rest?

I am hoping that users in Russia have been able to find the missing pieces to the puzzle.

[ljadw]

Where's the rest?

I put Krivosheev's data on an Excel spreadsheet, the Armies and Fleets add down to 10,171,358 irrecoverable losses. He has a list of 94 battles that add down to 7,822,439. There is a difference of 2,348,919, Where's the rest?

I am hoping that users in Russia have been able to find the missing pieces to the puzzle.

The rest were losses outsides the 94 battles and losses by the non operational forces in the interior .As in Germany, a lot of losses were not related to battles .

[thorwald77]

by the non operational forces in the interior

Do you have a source for that? I find it hard to believe. IMO you are just guessing.

Where's the Rest?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p92CKGAeQUY

[thorwald77]

Operation Mars(25 Nov- 15 Dez. 1942) seems to be missing from Krivosheev's list

This was not a minor operation-

http://www.johntillersoftware.com/Panze ... /notes.pdf

Operation Mars is the Eastern front at its nastiest. While the German army
was still the tactical master, the Soviets were learning from their previous mistakes.
This was a huge battle, fought while the eyes of the world were focused on the
monumental events taking place in southern Russia. It was fought by a stubborn
Soviet Army General, Georgi Zhukov, against his nemesis, Heersgruppe Mitte (Army
Group Center), commanded by the tenacious and resourceful General Oberst Walter
Model. German sources estimate that the Soviets lost over 200,000 men including
about 100,000 dead. The total Soviet tank losses were between 1700 and 1800
tanks. The Germans counted only 5,272 prisoners taken, so this was a struggle to
the death.

[ljadw]

by the non operational forces in the interior

Do you have a source for that? I find it hard to believe. IMO you are just guessing.

Where's the Rest?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p92CKGAeQUY

You are confounding irreplacable losses with combat losses : irreplacable losses are a mixture of combat and non-combat losses .
From the old AH Factbook;
Total losses :
1941 : 4.473.820 of whom 4158407 combat losses ,non combat losses were 300000+
1942 : 7369278 ;CL :6584764/nonCL :some 800000
1943 : 7857503;CL :6877118 /non CL :almost 900000
1944 :6878641;CL : 5685785 /non CL : some 1,2 million
1945 : 3013507 ;CL 2638167/non CL : almost 400000
If my memory is still correct ; the CL were counted by Quvist.
One should understand that the Western Allies divided their losses in CL and NCL, while the Soviets used an other method = Irrecoverable losses and non irrecoverable losses which were both a mixture of CL and NCL.
The Source = Soviet casualties and combat losses by Krivosheev .
Some of the 3,6 million NCL were suffered by the operational forces, other by the non operational forces .

[thorwald77]

The Source = Soviet casualties and combat losses by Krivosheev .

Those numbers you list are not in Krivosheev.

[thorwald77]

ljadw you miss my point,

The schedules pp. 161-207 in Krivosheev list

Front line Armies and Fleets

• KIA 5,184,749
  MIA 4,452,336
  Non Combat 534,273
  Irrecoverable losses 10,171,853
  
  Wounded 15,201,521
  Sick 3,001,198
  Frostbite 90,844
  Total Sick Wounded 18,293,563
  
  Total all losses 28,964,921

On Pages 107-161 Krivosheev lists details of 94 battles and operations

• Irrecoverable losses 7,822,439
  Wounded/Sick 11,817,259
  Total 19,639,698

We know Operation Mars is missing from the list.
I believe that it is guesswork to say difference is due to non-combat losses. Non combat losses were 555,500 according to Krivosheev.

Krivosheev is giving us totals for the front line Armies and Fleets listed individually. The units in the rear are not listed.

[thorwald77]

Krivosheev pp.161-218

• Total IRR losses Fronts-Fleets-Flotillas
  1 Northern 85,459
  2 North West 455,325
  3 Western 1,535,289
  4 3rd Belarusian 176,130
  5 South-West(1st formation) 1,017,098
  6 Southern(1st formation) 448,659
  7 Central(1st formation) 111,008
  8 Reserve(1st formation) 184,041
  9 Bryansk(1st & 2nd formation) 303,109
  10 Leningrad 467,525
  11 Karelian 110,435
  12 Kalinin-1stBaltic-Zemland 621,129
  13 Vlokhov(1st &2nd formation) 298,623
  14 Caucasus 30,547
  15 Crimea 194,807
  16 Caucasus(2nd formation) 154,158
  17 N. Caucasus(1st-formation) 89,337
  18 N. Caucasus(2nd formation) 129,304
  19 Voronezh & 1st Ukrainian 716,928
  20 Stalingrad-Don 429,043
  21 S.E. -Stalingrad 181,298
  22 S.W.(2nd formation 3rd Ukrainian 410,376
  23 Southern 2nd-4th Ukrainian 317,118
  24 Kursk-Orel-Reserve 83,197
  25 Stepp-2nd Ukrainian 370,390
  26 Baltic & 2nd Baltic 185,260
  27 Central 2nd-Belarsian 484,391
  28 2nd Belarusian 1st formation 5,522
  29 2nd Bearusian 2nd formation 136,097
  30 3rd Baltic 43,155
  31 Trans-Baikal 2,228
  32 1st Far Eastern 6,324
  33 2nd Far Eastern 2,449
  34 Moscow Defensive Zone 3,086
  35 51st Independent Army 52,203
  36 7th Independent Army 24,337
  37 52nd Independent Army 13,759
  38 4th Indepentant Army 17,743
  39 Independent Maritime Army(1st formation) 104,768
  40 Independent Maritime Army(2nd formation) 14,094
  41 14th Independand Army 412
  42 37th Independent Army 426
  Baltic 55,890
  Northern 10,905
  Pacific 998
  Black 82,394
  Amur 32
  Volga 622
  Dniepier 361
  Danube 199
  Caspian 310
  Onega 95
  Pinsk 514
  Naval Central Command 2,451
  IRRECOVERABLE LOSSES 10,171,358

[thorwald77]

Krivosheev pp.107-161

Operations and Battles
Irrecoverable Losses

• 1 Moldova 8,519
  2 Odessa 16,578
  3 Yelnya 10,701
  4 Tikhunin 22,743
  5 Crimea 48,438
  6 Sevastopol 156,880
  7 Lyuban 95,064
  8 Demyansk 88,908
  9 Bolkhov 21,319
  10 Toropets 10,400
  11 Barvenkovo 11,095
  12 Kerch 162,282
  13 Kharkov 170,958
  14 Vlokhov 54,774
  15 Rzhev 51,482
  16 Shinyavino 40,085
  17 V. Luki 31,674
  18 Krasnodar 66,814
  19 Demyansk 10,016
  20 Rzhev 38,862
  21 Mga 20,890
  22 Bryansk 13,033
  23 Melitopol 42,760
  24 Nevel 43,551
  25 Zaporoshye 3,443
  26 Kerch 6,985
  27 Gomel 21,650
  28 Kiev 26,443
  29 Zhitomer 23,163
  30 Kalinkovichi 12,350
  31 Korsun 24,286
  32 Rogochev 7,164
  33 Rezhitsa 12,880
  34 Pskov 7,663
  35 Madona 14,669
  36 Tartu 16,292
  37 Debrecen 19,713
  38 Goldap 16,819
  39 L. Silesia 23,577
  40 Balaton 8,492
  41 U. Silesia 15,876
  42 Moravaska 23,964
  43 Brataslava 16,933
  44 Lithuania 75,202
  45 Byelorussia 341,073
  46 W. Ukraine 172,323
  47 Artic 67,265
  48 Kiev 616,304
  49 Leningrad 214,078
  50 Smolensk 486,171
  51 Donbass 143,313
  52 Moscow 514,338
  53 Tikhvin 17,924
  54 Rostov 15,264
  55 Moscow 139,586
  56 Kerch 32,453
  57 Rzhev 272,320
  58 Voronezh 370,522
  59 Stalingrad 323,856
  60 N Caucasus 192,791
  61 Stalingrad 154,885
  62 N Caucasus 69,627
  63 Iskara 33,940
  64 Voronezh 55,475
  65 Kharkov 45,219
  66 Kursk 70,330
  67 Orel 112,529
  68 Belograd 71,611
  69 Smolensk 107,645
  70 Donbass 66,166
  71 Cherginov 102,957
  72 Novorossiysk 14,564
  73 L. Dnieper 173,201
  74 Kiev 6,491
  75 Dnieper 270,198
  76 Leningrad 76,686
  77 Crimea 17,754
  78 Vyborg 23,674
  79 Byelorussia 178,507
  80 Lvov 65,001
  81 Iasi 13,197
  82 E. Carpathian 26,843
  83 Baltic 61,468
  84 Belgrad 4,350
  85 Petsamo 6,084
  86 Budapest 80,026
  87 Vistula 43,251
  88 W. Carpathian 16,337
  89 E. Prussia 126,464
  90 E Pomerania 52,740
  91 Vienna 38,661
  92 Berlin 78,291
  93 Prague 11,265
  94 Manchuria 12,031
  IRRECOVERABLE LOSSES 7,822,439

You are walking on thin ice if you cite these numbers. We are on Mean Streets when we work with Soviet/Russian statistics

[ljadw]

The war in the East was more than a list of battles and operations ;thus, you can't have the total losses of this war by enumerating the losses of the individual battles and operations;other point is that the more detailed loss figures are,the less reliable they are .Thus, you follow the wrong way .