What was the discharge numbers for that period? Seems just as likely that unneeded personnel were discharged, probably older men who were less useful in the military than the civilian sector.AriX wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018 21:01I have noticed Krieshoevs huge cheating about military losses in 1945. When compare Red Army strenght beetwen 1.05.1945 and 1.06.1945 its easy to count , that total strenght on 1st July is on 300.000 personal less that it should be ,if believe that irrecoverable losses in 1945 were aprox. 500,000.
Plus, aprox. 500,000 drafts were drafted beetwen 1 May and 1`July of 1945. So, total KIA casuelties of Red Army in 1945 range from 1000,000 to 1,300,000.
Russian Military losses
-
- Member
- Posts: 3373
- Joined: 03 Dec 2002 01:42
- Location: illinois
Re: Russian Military losses
-
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 6767
- Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
- Location: Moscow, Russia
Re: Russian Military losses
Honestly speaking, I didn't understand your method. Anyway, Krivosheev didn't say about approx 500.000 casualties. Numbers from the book:AriX wrote: ↑13 Sep 2018 21:01I have noticed Krieshoevs huge cheating about military losses in 1945. When compare Red Army strenght beetwen 1.05.1945 and 1.06.1945 its easy to count , that total strenght on 1st July is on 300.000 personal less that it should be ,if believe that irrecoverable losses in 1945 were aprox. 500,000.
557 643 killed
68 537 missing
148 028 wounded dying of wounds
26 509 non-battle casualties (ok, not all were actually dead)
So a way more than 500.000.
Where is it from?Plus, aprox. 500,000 drafts were drafted beetwen 1 May and 1`July of 1945.
-
- Member
- Posts: 163
- Joined: 29 Jun 2015 08:07
- Location: Ukraine
-
- Member
- Posts: 527
- Joined: 25 Sep 2007 17:42
- Location: usa
Re: Russian Military losses
Regarding the POWs and MIAs here is the dataARIX I believe the problem is in the Krivosheev figure for POWs and MIAs
1-According to Viktor Zemeskov 6.2 million were captured
See note #1 here http://scepsis.net/library/id_1234.html
2-According to Krivosheev the original records of the Army/Navy showed 3.305.600 POW/MIA
He added 1.150.00 POW/MIA for unrecorded casualties to bring the total up to 4.455.600 POW/MIA
3-In Krivosheev the details for the individual Armies add down to 4,452,336 POW/MIA
4-Krivosheev added 103,000 Border Troops to bring his total to 4,559,000
Here is my reconciliation
Total Captured/MIA 6,200,000
LESS
Freeded up to Oct1945 (314,000)
Imprisoned by SOVs (436,000)
DiedGerman service (212,000)
Reservists (500,000)
Remained in the west after war (180,000)
Balance 4,558,000
Freeded after Oct 1945 (2,016,000)
Balance dead MIA POW 2,543,000
In summation 6.2 million were captured and 3.657 million were accounted for leaving 2.543 million dead MIA POW. Krivosheev shows us the 4.558 million on his schedule, where are the other 1.642 million? Krivosheev attributes the difference to captured civilians, reservists ect. According to German records cited by Krivosheev 823,200 deserters were in German service. I believe that the Krivosheev schedule is дезинформация/маскировка to cover up the deserters in German service and unrecorded MIA. Another important point is that the total Captured/MIA was 6.2 million, but the Germans registered 5,269,000 POW of whom they freeded 816,000 for service. No doubt many military personnel were cut off and perished before being registered as POW.
Note Krivosheev puts total POW freeded at 2,329,000, of whom 2,015,000 after 10/1944. Difference 314,000
Last edited by thorwald77 on 15 Sep 2018 23:41, edited 2 times in total.
-
- Member
- Posts: 527
- Joined: 25 Sep 2007 17:42
- Location: usa
Re: Russian Military losses
Recap of Total Casualties

- Total casualties
KIA 5,226,800
Non Combat deaths 555,500
DOW 1,102,800
MIA 500,000
MIA/POWs 1,000,000
MIA/POWs 4,559,000
Freeded (2,015,000)
Sick died 267,300
Convicts executed 135,000
Convicts Penal Units 422,700
In West Mar 1946 190,000
Total 11,944,100
- Deserters in German Service (included with MIA/POW)
Died in German service 212,000
Imprisoned by Sovs 436,000
In West post war 180,000
Total 828,000
-
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 6767
- Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
- Location: Moscow, Russia
Re: Russian Military losses
A simple attempt to estimate officer casualties in 1941.
Officers available in June 1941:
Army - 568 364 generals and officers
Navy - 52 283 admirals and officers
Total - 620 647 (M.V. Zaharov "Soviet General Staff before the war")
Until the end of 1941:
reserve officers called up - 652 336
gradated from military schools and courses - 169 603
transferred from NKVD - 13 328
(From "Military cadres of the Soviet state...")
Total by 1.1.42 620 647 + 652 336 + 169 603 + 13 328 = 1 455 914
In the Red Army on 20.12.1941 as reported by general Chetverikov 960 040 officers and 42 042 students of academies, courses etc, total 1 002 082
viewtopic.php?p=1951619#p1951619
In addition of 600 000 wounded and sick in hospitals about 40-50 000 were officers (based on normal ratio of officer casualties)
In the Navy on 1.1.1942 - I don't have exact number, I assume about 60 000 men.
Total in the Army and Navy by 1.1.42 about 1 100 000-1 110 000 officers.
Which indicates a shortage of about 340 000.
This shortage includes some number of officers which retired due to health conditions, were arrested, sentenced or discharged for other reasons. It's not known exactly, but I estimate it as 10-20 000. Which leaves about 320-330 000 as irrevocable casualties (dead and missing in action). Russian official source ("Soviet casualties and military losses..." by G. Krivosheev) gives 203083 irrevocable casualties of army and navy officers from 22.6 to 31.12.1941. This number is clearly understated and doesn't agree with the balance calculations given above. On other other and a post-war count by names derived from various sources which was cited in "Military cadres..." gives 233 316 officer casualties in 1941 (50 884 dead and 182 432 missing and declared dead). This number doesn't include missing and prisoners of war which were recovered during or after the war. A partial statistical data for 1 368 849 repatriated Soviet POWs counted 52 025 offciers captured during 1941 ("Soviet casualties and military losses..."). Extrapolating the same ratio to the total number of 1 836 500 repatriated POWs we arrive to some 70 000 officers taken prisoner until the end of 1941 and repatriated to the USSR. Also some number of officers who went missing or taken prisoner were recovered on Soviet territory in 1941-1944. It is known that until 1.10.44 50 441 officers recovered from occupied territories were taken to filtration camps. Probably some considerable number of officers were additionally inducted directly by the army. Taking the same % as for repatriated officer we arrive to a minimal number of 20 000.
So, finally, total losses of officers (dead and missing) in 1941 are 230 000 + 70 000 + 20 000 = 320 000 (of which 90 000 were recovered). Which is a very good agreement with the rough balance estimate above. The final conclusion is that official numbers for 1941 casualties seem to be strongly understated.
Officers available in June 1941:
Army - 568 364 generals and officers
Navy - 52 283 admirals and officers
Total - 620 647 (M.V. Zaharov "Soviet General Staff before the war")
Until the end of 1941:
reserve officers called up - 652 336
gradated from military schools and courses - 169 603
transferred from NKVD - 13 328
(From "Military cadres of the Soviet state...")
Total by 1.1.42 620 647 + 652 336 + 169 603 + 13 328 = 1 455 914
In the Red Army on 20.12.1941 as reported by general Chetverikov 960 040 officers and 42 042 students of academies, courses etc, total 1 002 082
viewtopic.php?p=1951619#p1951619
In addition of 600 000 wounded and sick in hospitals about 40-50 000 were officers (based on normal ratio of officer casualties)
In the Navy on 1.1.1942 - I don't have exact number, I assume about 60 000 men.
Total in the Army and Navy by 1.1.42 about 1 100 000-1 110 000 officers.
Which indicates a shortage of about 340 000.
This shortage includes some number of officers which retired due to health conditions, were arrested, sentenced or discharged for other reasons. It's not known exactly, but I estimate it as 10-20 000. Which leaves about 320-330 000 as irrevocable casualties (dead and missing in action). Russian official source ("Soviet casualties and military losses..." by G. Krivosheev) gives 203083 irrevocable casualties of army and navy officers from 22.6 to 31.12.1941. This number is clearly understated and doesn't agree with the balance calculations given above. On other other and a post-war count by names derived from various sources which was cited in "Military cadres..." gives 233 316 officer casualties in 1941 (50 884 dead and 182 432 missing and declared dead). This number doesn't include missing and prisoners of war which were recovered during or after the war. A partial statistical data for 1 368 849 repatriated Soviet POWs counted 52 025 offciers captured during 1941 ("Soviet casualties and military losses..."). Extrapolating the same ratio to the total number of 1 836 500 repatriated POWs we arrive to some 70 000 officers taken prisoner until the end of 1941 and repatriated to the USSR. Also some number of officers who went missing or taken prisoner were recovered on Soviet territory in 1941-1944. It is known that until 1.10.44 50 441 officers recovered from occupied territories were taken to filtration camps. Probably some considerable number of officers were additionally inducted directly by the army. Taking the same % as for repatriated officer we arrive to a minimal number of 20 000.
So, finally, total losses of officers (dead and missing) in 1941 are 230 000 + 70 000 + 20 000 = 320 000 (of which 90 000 were recovered). Which is a very good agreement with the rough balance estimate above. The final conclusion is that official numbers for 1941 casualties seem to be strongly understated.
-
- Member
- Posts: 527
- Joined: 25 Sep 2007 17:42
- Location: usa
Re: Russian Military losses
Art, the difference may be due to those mobilized but never inducted. In the 1993 ed. p. 339 Krivoshev estimates 1 million reservists called up but never inducted, this may explain a large portion of the difference. Assuming 8% were officers c.80,000. Also I believe that Krivosheev excludes convicts and deserters from his figures of POW 1.368 million returned to SU, 436.6 thous imprisoned and 212.4 thous deserters equals 2.016 million POWs released. The reservists called up but never inducted, convicts and deserters are treated as a demographic loss but are not given credit for honorable service.
- MIA-POW 5,059,000
Convicted (436,000)
Deserters (212,400)
Kriv Deduction (939,700)
Returned SU (1,368,000)
Krivoshevs MIA/POW 2,103,300
- 31.812.1
(939.7)
(1.154.8)
(142.8)
29.574.8
Last edited by thorwald77 on 23 Jul 2019 00:06, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Member
- Posts: 527
- Joined: 25 Sep 2007 17:42
- Location: usa
Re: Russian Military losses
Summary Soviet Losses

If we drop in 226,000 Not returned Feb 1 1946 instead of March 1946 190,000 we tie out to the Illenkov's 13.850 million
Krivosheev 9,168
Forced Labor 2,164
Sickness 267
Convicted 994
Total 12,593
KIA 5,226.8
Other losses 555.5
WIA 1,102.8
MIA 5,059.0
Released (2,016.4)
Duplicates (939.7)
Abroad 180.0
Krivosheev 9,168.0
Ludskie Poteri p 180 10,181,000 Total POW/Civ taken to Germany
LESS
Ludskie Poteri p 180 (5,917,000) Released
Deserters (212,000)
Never Inducted (1,000,000)
Duplicates (-939,000)
Returned after 3/46 (10,000)
POW/MIA Krivosheev 2,103,000
- KIA 5,187,100
WIA 1,100,300
Non Combat 541,900
Border Sec 159,100
MIA/POW 4,455,000
Released (2,016,500)
MIA 500,000
Never Inducted 1,000,000
Died sickness 267,300
Executed 135,000
Penal Units 422,700
Imprisoned 436,600
Deserters 212,400
-
Total Losses 12,400,900
Not returned March 1946 190,000
Died in Hospital 1,222,000
Military losses 13,812,900
Civilians 7,420,100
Famine disease 4,100,000
Infant mortality1,280,000
ADK balance 26,613,000

If we drop in 226,000 Not returned Feb 1 1946 instead of March 1946 190,000 we tie out to the Illenkov's 13.850 million
Krivosheev 9,168
Forced Labor 2,164
Sickness 267
Convicted 994
Total 12,593
KIA 5,226.8
Other losses 555.5
WIA 1,102.8
MIA 5,059.0
Released (2,016.4)
Duplicates (939.7)
Abroad 180.0
Krivosheev 9,168.0
Ludskie Poteri p 180 10,181,000 Total POW/Civ taken to Germany
LESS
Ludskie Poteri p 180 (5,917,000) Released
Deserters (212,000)
Never Inducted (1,000,000)
Duplicates (-939,000)
Returned after 3/46 (10,000)
POW/MIA Krivosheev 2,103,000
-
- Member
- Posts: 527
- Joined: 25 Sep 2007 17:42
- Location: usa
Re: Russian Military losses
Balance per Army Groups &Fleets in Krivosheev
- KIA 5,184,700
Non Combat 534,300
POW/MIA 4,452,300
Subtotal detail in Krivosheev 10,171,300
WIA 1,100,300
Released (2,329,500)
Abroad 2/46 225,900
Krivosheev Total 9,168,000
Deductions per Krivosheev 2001 Edition
Returned USSR after 10/44 (1,368,000)
Imprisoned (436,000)
Deserters (212,000)
Returned USSR before 10/44 (313,500)
Total deductions (2,329,500)
-
- Member
- Posts: 527
- Joined: 25 Sep 2007 17:42
- Location: usa
Re: Russian Military losses
Total Demographic Loss -My estimate
As at 2/1/1946
KIA 5,184,749
Non Combat 534,273.
DOW 1,102,800
Sickness 267,394.
Border Sec 159,100.
POW-MIA 3,912,283
Abroad 2/46 225,836
Convicts 557,700.
Balance losses 11,944,135
As at 2/1/1946
KIA 5,184,749
Non Combat 534,273.
DOW 1,102,800
Sickness 267,394.
Border Sec 159,100.
POW-MIA 3,912,283
Abroad 2/46 225,836
Convicts 557,700.
Balance losses 11,944,135
-
- Member
- Posts: 14436
- Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50
Re: Russian Military losses
demographic losses and military losses are two different things .thorwald77 wrote: ↑23 Jul 2019 00:04Total Demographic Loss -My estimate
As at 2/1/1946
KIA 5,184,749
Non Combat 534,273.
DOW 1,102,800
Sickness 267,394.
Border Sec 159,100.
POW-MIA 3,912,283
Abroad 2/46 225,836
Convicts 557,700.
Balance losses 11,944,135
-
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 6767
- Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
- Location: Moscow, Russia
Re: Russian Military losses
I don't believe it. Both the territory occupied and the number of prisoners claimed by Wehrmacht and allies in the first days of the war were not that large. Then these border areas (Baltic and former Poland) were exactly the place with the least concentration of officer reservists. So the bulk of called-up officers most probably reached military units. "Military cadres" support this notion indirect saying that mobilization was actually excessive compared with requirements.thorwald77 wrote: ↑22 Jul 2019 19:08Art, the difference may be due to those mobilized but never inducted. In the 1993 ed. p. 339 Krivoshev estimates 1 million reservists called up but never inducted
About 1.84 million POWs ultimately repatriated according to Krivosheev. Which is consisted with stats of the Soviet repatriation agency cited by Zemskov. 1.37 mln number is given for October 1945, when reparation was not yet completed.Also I believe that Krivosheev excludes convicts and deserters from his figures of POW 1.368 million returned to SU
-
- Member
- Posts: 527
- Joined: 25 Sep 2007 17:42
- Location: usa
Re: Russian Military losses
Art you don’t believe that one million liable for military service were captured, but this is what Kirivosheev tells us on p.339 of the 1st ed. I believe that his balance of one million are considered civilians included with the 939,700 so called duplications and 212,400 deserters that make up the 2.164 million “forced labor in Germany”.
Art you believe that the 1.368 million released POWs is a preliminary number but I believe that Krivosheev in the 2001 ed p. 462-64 gives us a full explanation of the fate of the prisoners. The 1.368 million were returned out of a total of 2.329 million released. But he is also making clear to readers that 939,000 were released for German service. I believe that the actual total of 2.329 million released is made up as follows: 1.368,000 sent home, 436,000 imprisoned, 212,000 deserters Total 2,016,000.
Golikov began his work in Oct 1944, before that time 313,000 were released bringing the total to 2,329,500.
Art what can you tell us about the fate of the 994,300 convicted and 212,400 deserters. Were their families notified or were they just reported just “missing” ? Illenkov claims he has no deserters in his card files.
Art you believe that the 1.368 million released POWs is a preliminary number but I believe that Krivosheev in the 2001 ed p. 462-64 gives us a full explanation of the fate of the prisoners. The 1.368 million were returned out of a total of 2.329 million released. But he is also making clear to readers that 939,000 were released for German service. I believe that the actual total of 2.329 million released is made up as follows: 1.368,000 sent home, 436,000 imprisoned, 212,000 deserters Total 2,016,000.
Golikov began his work in Oct 1944, before that time 313,000 were released bringing the total to 2,329,500.
Art what can you tell us about the fate of the 994,300 convicted and 212,400 deserters. Were their families notified or were they just reported just “missing” ? Illenkov claims he has no deserters in his card files.
-
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 6767
- Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
- Location: Moscow, Russia
Re: Russian Military losses
Actually not. It's said that the Soviet General Staff estimated in June 1942 that 0.5 mln reservists were captured. Also about 5% of reservists in western regions were exempt from mobilization for various reasons and stayed on occupied territory and were partly captured (no source for that indicated). The last part is really vaguely formulated. First, 5% of what? Then, if they were not called up then how they became captured? I really don't understand this part. In any case these are very crude estimates made without real hard data. As I said, I don't believe in their accuracy. German army claimed about 300 000 POWs captured in the first 10-12 days of the war, the bulk of them in the Belostok-Minsk cauldron. Probably they really disrupted the initial Soviet mobilization to some extent, but definitely not on such large scale.thorwald77 wrote: ↑22 Jul 2019 19:08Art, the difference may be due to those mobilized but never inducted. In the 1993 ed. p. 339 Krivoshev estimates 1 million reservists called up but never inducted, this may explain a large portion of the difference.
I don't "believe". It is said in the book ("data as of 3 October 1945") quite unequivocally. Repatriation still continued after that date. For example, according to V.Zemskov 441 130 civilians and POWs arrived from Germany in October 1945, 137 132 in November, 122 272 in December etc.Art you believe that the 1.368 million released POWs is a preliminary number
The most diverse, I guess.Art what can you tell us about the fate of the 994,300 convicted and 212,400 deserters
By the standard procedure lists of people sentenced to execution/jail terms had to be submitted both to central agencies and local military commissariats in their families' districts. Deserters - the instruction from 1944 didn't say anything about them. As a database search indicates in very many instances there were reported in a similar way.
-
- Member
- Posts: 527
- Joined: 25 Sep 2007 17:42
- Location: usa
Re: Russian Military losses
Art, here his my reconciliation of what actually happened. It may help explain why your estimate of officer casualties does not tie out.
Soviet losses- My estimate
Never inducted 1,000,000 Krivosheev tells us this on p.339 of the 1993 ed.
The 939K is deducted twice!
Soviet losses- My estimate
- KIA 5,187,100
WIA 1,100,300
Non Combat 541,900
Border/Security 159,100
POWs - MIA 4,455,600
Returned after 10/1944 (2,016,000)
Returned before 10/1944 (313,500)
In German Service (939,700)
Died sickness 267,400
Abroad 2/1/1946 226,000
Official statistic 8,668,200
Adjustments:
In German Service 939,700
MIA 500,000
Convicts 557,700
Adj. for surrounded personnel 313,500
Never inducted 1,000,000
Returned during 2/1946 (35,000)
Bal per schedule of conscripts 11,944,100
- POWs per German records 5,269
Returned per Krivosheev (2,329)
Border/Security-MIA 103
Returned after 10/1944 2,016
Balance MIA/POW per Kirvosheev 5,059
Never inducted 1,000,000 Krivosheev tells us this on p.339 of the 1993 ed.
- Official statistic 8,668,200
Correction "In German Service" 939,700
MIA 500,000
Convicts 557,700
Correction for returned 2/1946 (35,000)
Actual losses -My estimate 10,630,600
The 939K is deducted twice!
Last edited by thorwald77 on 24 Jul 2019 14:58, edited 5 times in total.