Russian Military losses

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Art » 28 Feb 2020 18:30

That's a known thing. According to Yu. Kilin
One of the tasks of the Center is to find out data on causalities of the Soviet armed forces in the Soviet-Finnish war. For this end the initial electronic database containing 168 024 records was reduced to 138 533 records by removal of duplicating records of casualties. Additionally data on more than Soviet POWs who died in the Finnish captivity before the exchange of prisoners in May 1940 were added to the database. As of 29 December 2014 the database contain 138 509 records of Red Army personnel who where killed, died or went missing in the Soviet-Finnish war of 1939-40.
https://sthb.petrsu.ru/journal/article.php?id=3022
I guess they are talking about the same database as indicating by close numbers (167 976 and 168 024).
Kilin's database is available online:
http://www.winterwar.karelia.ru/site/bd/
In essence it is based on mostly the same primary records as the data of the Soviet Ministry of Defense and the Main Staff from 1949-1951 (126 875 according to Krivosheev). Not that the difference (7-8%) is outstandingly large, and also the latter number didn't include nonbattle casualties.

Further on, there is a problem of duplicating records. Kilin says that he mostly cleared them. I'm a more skeptical man. A simple search by the database gives:
- Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov, private of the 115 Rifle Regiment/75 Rifle Division, born in Drozdy village of the Ostrov district, killed in action in December 1939
- Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov, private of the 115 Rifle Regiment/75 Rifle Division, born in Batalovo village of the Ostrov district, missing in action in December 1939
Obviously this is the same man corresponding to two different records. There are similar cases of duplication. Some are more subtle, and in some cases it is impossible to determine if they are duplicating or not.

That applies likewise to the 1941-1945 period. There is nor problem to count the total number of casualties records. Since they are digitized and uploaded online that would take a couple of minutes. The problem is to find the "physical" number of casualties, cleared of duplicates, repatriated POWs, recovered missing etc.

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thorwald77
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 28 Feb 2020 19:22

Art wrote:
The problem is to find the "physical" number of casualties, cleared of duplicates, repatriated POWs, recovered missing etc.
Lets review the balance conscripted using data in the 3rd edition of Krivoshvev.

Figures in millions:
  • Red Army/Navy 6/1941 4,826
    Civilians with military 74
    Mobilized 1941-45 31,812
    Border/security 144
    Reservists 500
    Total mobilized 37,356

    Less:
    Red Army/Navy 6/1945 (12,839)
    Total deductions (9,693)
    POW liberated (2,016)
    Deaths in rear area hospitals 1,222
    Adj. for Deserters in post war West 180
    Total irrecoverable losses 13,850
Note 1-there were 3.798 million discharged for medical reasons of whom 2.576 million became invalides, the balance of 1.222 million died in rear area hospitals.

Note 2 Archive data does not include deserters. Adj. for Deserters in post war West 180,000

Total irrecoverable losses 13,850. I will provide a a breakout of this figure in another post.

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thorwald77
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 28 Feb 2020 20:40

Art wrote
The problem is to find the "physical" number of casualties, cleared of duplicates, repatriated POWs, recovered missing etc.
Total military irrecoverable losses were 13.850 million not including deserters;

The 1946 breakout of this figure including civilian losses is as follows

Figures in millions:
  • KIA 5,184
    Non combat losses 534
    Border-Sec 144
    Died sickness 267
    Reservists 500
    Duplicates 939

    Balance less prisoners 8,668

    POW-MIA Army/Navy 1,879
    Civilians in Pow camps 1,476
    Soviet convicts 557

    Balance POW 3,912

    Military deserters 2/1946 225
    Civilians west 2/1946 463

    Balance 2nd emigration 2/1946 688


    Civilian deaths 6,074
    Siege Leningrad 658

    Balance civilian deaths 6,732

    Total war dead 20,000
8,668+3,3912+688+6,732=20,000

The figures of 5.184,749 KIA and 534,273 non combat losses are the the totals of the Army groups and fleets listed in Krivosheev. The total missing and imprisoned are 4,452,336 including penal units at the front and executed.

The figure of the POW and MIA agrees with Krivosheev and the Axis records

POW in German reports 5.163
POW in Romanian reports 82
POW in Finnish reports 64
MIA 500
Less liberated 2,329
Total POW-MIA 3,480

The figure of 2,329.5 million liberated comes from the 2001 ed of Krivosheev page 463.

The figure of 3.480 million POW MIA is broken out as follows

Germany 5,163
Romania 82
Finland 64
MIA 500
Total 3,480

Less
Liberated(2,329)
Civilian prisoners(1,476)
Border Sec (91)
Civilians (35)
Red Army Navy POW/MIA 1,879

The proof for these figures is the 1995 figures listed in Ludskie Poteri. I will post a breakout of these 1995 figures that ties out to the ADK figure of 26.613 million war dead

Note the figure of 35k civilian POWMIA is listed on Krivosheev 3rd ed p.229

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thorwald77
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 28 Feb 2020 22:29

Art wrote
The problem is to find the "physical" number of casualties, cleared of duplicates, repatriated POWs, recovered missing etc.
The 1995 figures were revised to agree with the ADK figure of 26.6 million

Numbers millions

KIA 5,187.
Died wounds 1,100
Non combat 555.
Sickness 267.
Convicts 563.
POW-MIA 3,895
Liberated -2016
Civilians 94.
Border Security 159.

Balance Military 9,804.

Balance POWs 1,476
Military deserters Feb 46 225
2nd emigration Feb 46 463

Forced labor in Germany 2,164

Civilians killed 6,075
Balance civilian reservists 406
"Duplications" dead or missing 939

Exterminated by Germans 7,420

Siege of Leningrad 658

Died in rear area hospital 1,222

Famine disease 4,100

Increase Infant mortality 1300
-
Total of the balances above is 26,668 million

The ADK total was corrected to reflect the current figures for the 2nd emigration. Philimoshin used the balance from Feb 1946 688k. The current total is 631k which brings total losses to 26.613 million. 180k + 451k = 631k

I will post another schedule to list the total military irrecoverable losses of 13,850 million

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Art » 29 Feb 2020 10:30

Art wrote:
28 Feb 2020 18:30
In essence it is based on mostly the same primary records as the data of the Soviet Ministry of Defense and the Main Staff from 1949-1951 (126 875 according to Krivosheev).
It should be added that this registry of casualties consisted of two part:
- names of casualties submitted by military units during the war
- names revealed by census of relatives after the end of WW2 (1946 or later).

Here were have the same problems as for the 1941-45 war:
- overlap of these two independent body of data. Ivan Ivanov reported missing by his relatives from the Pskov region (both the exact unit and date unknown) and Ivan Ivanov killed in action in the 49 Rifle Division in December 1939 - were they the same men or not? It's impossible to tell in very many cases.
- attribution of casualties to irrevocable military casualties during the war. People could die outside military, they could emigrate, they could be arrested, sentenced, desert etc.
Then the GPW started just a little more than a year later then the end of the Soviet-Finnish War. It is quite possible that many people reported missing by their relatives actually perished after 22.6.41.

As far as the SFW is concerned there is a more or less exact number of ~190 000 wounded in action which is supported by medical statistics. However much you try the global number of killed in action and deaths of wounds cannot be larger than 1/2 of the number of wounded. Also there are non-battle casualties (several thousand) and 6000 POWs. All that combined the total number irrevocable casualties cannot be much larger than 100 thousand in my opinion. The larger figure of casualties in the name registry could result from duplication and other effects described above.

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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by Art » 29 Feb 2020 14:29

In general, it seems that many people are unaware of the fact that the Russian online database of casualty records with a pretty powerful functionality exists for more than 10 years:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBD_Memorial
These database contains practically all names of casualties Red Army, Navy and NKVD troops which were collected by their central apparatus during or after the war. A scan through causality lists submitted by military units and hospitals yielded 11 311 863 records with the following breakdown by months, years and causes:
OBD1.png
OBD2.png
This raw output contains many cases of duplication where two or more records corresponded to the same men. Also many men reported missing were later recovered as repatriated POWs or in some other ways and there were quite a number of cases of erroneous reporting (e.g. evacuated wounded reported as killed in actions). On the other hand this registration by names was be no means complete, especially in 1941 as evident from the total number or records from this year. The reasons were either poor quality of reporting or the fact that HQs that were supposed to make this reporting were destroyed altogether. As described in another topic after the war the Soviet General Staff tried to make an accounting of casualties who were not covered by normal reporting by collecting info from relatives which yielded several million additional names. There is still a problem of combining these different two body of data which makes arriving to some final number quite tricky.
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thorwald77
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 29 Feb 2020 14:44

Art wrote
These database contains practically all names of casualties Red Army, Navy and NKVD troops which were collected by their central apparatus during or after the war.
Art I have no doubt that this reflects the names in the database. However my posting yesterday is in agreement with the following:

1-The Balance conscripted 14.823 million less 2.016 million liberated POW 12.807 million. The Archive figure of 13.850 million adds 1.222 died in hospital less 180,000 deserters.

2-The Krivosheev study details
  • KIA 5,184.7
    Non combat 534.2
    POW-MIA 3,894.5
    Liberated POW(2,016.4)
    Deserters 2/1946 225.0
    DOW 1,100.0
    Sickness 267.0
    Convicts 557.7
    Border Sec144.0
    Civilians 94.6
    Total 9,985.3
3-The remaining balance of 2.822 million was plugged into civilian casualties
  • Balance POWs 1,476.0
    Military deserters 225.0
    2nd emigration 463.0
    Total 2.164

  • Civilians killed 6,075.0
    "Duplications"939.7
    Balance conscripted 405.3
    Exterminated Civilians 7.420
4-The official version 9.168 million excludes the convicts, border troops and the 94,000 civilians
  • KIA 5,187.2
    Non combat 555.6
    POW-MIA 3,894.5
    less Liberated (2,016.5)
    DOW 1,100.3
    Sickness 267.3
    Deserters 180.0
    Total 9,168.4

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thorwald77
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Re: Russian Military losses

Post by thorwald77 » 29 Feb 2020 16:08

Thank you Art for posting the database figures, they fit into puzzle perfectly
  • KIA 5,187.2
    Non combat 555.6
    DOW 1,100.3
    Sickness 267.3
    POW-MIA 3,896.0
    Liberated (2,016.0)
    Border Security 159.1
    Civilians 94.6
    Executed 135.0
    Penal units 422.7
    Deserters 180.0
    Subtotal 9,981.8
    Duplication 939.7
    Total reported losses 10,921.5

Reconciliation POW-MIA balance

Germany 5,163.
Romania 82.
Finland 64.
Released (2,329.)
MIA 500.0
Total 3,480

Red Army Navy 1,879
Border Sec 90
Civilians with military 35
"exterminated civilians" 1,476
Total 3,480

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