you mean "remind" -right. Oh I forgot my English is trully horrible.Shiva wrote:Berlin is a slavic name ? Never heard such nonsense. You remember me about General Anders.
Was the Russian Army the largest in history?
- Oleg Grigoryev
- Member
- Posts: 5051
- Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:06
- Location: Russia
- Oleg Grigoryev
- Member
- Posts: 5051
- Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:06
- Location: Russia
Self-determination hardly supposed to be provided by the means of foreign troops.Rommel wrote:I really do not know much of Galicia
As I stated before Basarabia was part of Moldavia( a romanian Principate).Romania as a state,as a name appeared in 1861 but until than there were romanians divided in three little countries.
ANd by the way Romanians started fighting with the Otoman Empire around 1350....you are not the only ones...
And taking back a romanian territory is not backstubbing...if I well remember during the revolution in 1917 Lenin stated the right of selfdetermination for each of the peoples in former Russian Empire and Basarabia choosed to get back to motherland which is ROMANIA.
I don t think Romanian ethnics there ( the majority oh the inhabitants were and still are Romanian ethnics) regarded Romanian troops in 1918 as foreign ones...think before you write please.
And in WW1 we attacked in order to regain Transylvania which nowadays is a part of Romania...so as far as I am concerned we never tried to conquer another people ( eg Hungarians, Russians, Bulgarians)...
And in WW1 we attacked in order to regain Transylvania which nowadays is a part of Romania...so as far as I am concerned we never tried to conquer another people ( eg Hungarians, Russians, Bulgarians)...
- Benoit Douville
- Member
- Posts: 3184
- Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 02:13
- Location: Montréal
- Oleg Grigoryev
- Member
- Posts: 5051
- Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:06
- Location: Russia
As far as International Law was concerned they were foreign troops. They entered the land that belonged to different state. Also you are not going to claim that entire population of Bessrabia was of Romanian origin are you? Was that part of population asked what it thinks about Romanian troops? If yes who conducted the plebiscite and who saw to it that it was not mangled with? Also if Romania was so sure about it right on Bessrabia why did it promised initially to live it? Now I would like to hear you reasoning in regards to why No major power ever official recognized Bessrabia as part of Romania.Rommel wrote:I don t think Romanian ethnics there ( the majority oh the inhabitants were and still are Romanian ethnics) regarded Romanian troops in 1918 as foreign ones...think before you write please.
And in WW1 we attacked in order to regain Transylvania which nowadays is a part of Romania...so as far as I am concerned we never tried to conquer another people ( eg Hungarians, Russians, Bulgarians)...
To Rommel:
Don't try to foolish the others... You argues are incorrect. First of all, I'm from Chisinau, Moldova. And I know better then you that almost all native population of this region proclaimed themselves as Moldovans not Romanians.
I.e. they are romanians for Romania to have some excuse of annex Basarabia.
The same way nazis did - proclaimed luxembourgians as Germans and annexed the Great Duchy... But luxembourgians are not Germans as Moldovans are not Romanians...
Don't try to foolish the others... You argues are incorrect. First of all, I'm from Chisinau, Moldova. And I know better then you that almost all native population of this region proclaimed themselves as Moldovans not Romanians.
I.e. they are romanians for Romania to have some excuse of annex Basarabia.
The same way nazis did - proclaimed luxembourgians as Germans and annexed the Great Duchy... But luxembourgians are not Germans as Moldovans are not Romanians...
To Rommel:
What did you mean - the Same Root?
We're all have the Same root - Adam and Eva...
Is it enough to annex some territory - ask you once again? Why Russians might not annex Poland or Bulgaria - Poles, Bulgarians and Russians have the same root? So let's agree - Romania wanted Basarabia to be annexed, that's why Romania proclaimed native population to be Romanians, though they are not Romanians, as Ukrainians are not Russians, Netherlanders are not Germans and so on...
What did you mean - the Same Root?
We're all have the Same root - Adam and Eva...
Is it enough to annex some territory - ask you once again? Why Russians might not annex Poland or Bulgaria - Poles, Bulgarians and Russians have the same root? So let's agree - Romania wanted Basarabia to be annexed, that's why Romania proclaimed native population to be Romanians, though they are not Romanians, as Ukrainians are not Russians, Netherlanders are not Germans and so on...
for as much history as I recall Basarabia was for centurie part of the Moldavian Princedom ( one of the gratest Princes was Stephan the Great...and in moldavian language which is as different from Romanian as is the German in Austria from German in Germany, Stefan cel Mare)...which is now a province a Romania....that is the meaning of same root...and Romanians are latin blood and I think they are unique from this point of view in the Balkans and Eastern Europe...so maybe you could explain how Moldavians speak a latin language
btw ...I think that in Chisinau in the last few months there were street demonstrations pro Romania.pro Romanian language...not Moldavian language but Romanian
btw ...I think that in Chisinau in the last few months there were street demonstrations pro Romania.pro Romanian language...not Moldavian language but Romanian
- Cezarprimo
- Member
- Posts: 121
- Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 11:28
Bessarabia
Bessarabia was part of the principate of Moldova established in the XIV'th century. Until the Russain Empire became a force to be reckoned with nobody contested Bessarabia as being part of Moldova. The russians had an interest in controlling the Danube Delta in thier quest to reach Constatinopol so first they helped some Moldavian voivodes to rebell against the turks, to no sucess however. Here it should be said that the turks had Moldova under their rule only economically, politically, the country was formally independent.
Following the war between Russia and the Otoman Empire in 1877, the russians refused to leave Bessarbia allthough it was part from the new kingdom of Romania which fought by their side against the turks and allowed the russians to enter its territory in order to wage the war against the turks. They gave Romania the region of Dobruja (that was under turkish political rule and was inhabited mainly by romanians) as some sort of compensation for Bessarabia. The kingdom of Romania was internationally acknwoledge at Berlin in 1978, it gained its complete independence from the turks following the war in 1877.
In WWI, the disasters of the russian army helped the communists which once in control of Russia declared a cease fire with the Central Powers thus forcing also Romania out of the war as Romania could not continue to fight alone because all of its weapons and ammunitions were coming via Russia. In that turmoil in 1918, Bessarabia choosed to unite with Romania, I fail to see how could Romanian's army influence that decision as Romania was forced to sign a peace treaty with the Central Powers in the beginning of 1918 which meant the disolution of the romanian army.
Following WWII SU took once again Bessarabia, together with other terrirtories from Romania, a stalinist type ethnic cleasing followed...
To my knowledge, today, the country of Moldova comprises most of Bessarabia (without some countys) and some part of Ukraine, as the russians following their divide et impera rule took some parts of Bessarabia and gave them to Ukraine and took some parts of Ukrain and gave them to the soviet republic of Moldova.
This is what I could gather from the net and from some books I have regarding this subject, I have to say that it took some work as there are very few doccuments available in english... Allthough off topic I my post is interesting for the current discussion.
Regards
Following the war between Russia and the Otoman Empire in 1877, the russians refused to leave Bessarbia allthough it was part from the new kingdom of Romania which fought by their side against the turks and allowed the russians to enter its territory in order to wage the war against the turks. They gave Romania the region of Dobruja (that was under turkish political rule and was inhabited mainly by romanians) as some sort of compensation for Bessarabia. The kingdom of Romania was internationally acknwoledge at Berlin in 1978, it gained its complete independence from the turks following the war in 1877.
In WWI, the disasters of the russian army helped the communists which once in control of Russia declared a cease fire with the Central Powers thus forcing also Romania out of the war as Romania could not continue to fight alone because all of its weapons and ammunitions were coming via Russia. In that turmoil in 1918, Bessarabia choosed to unite with Romania, I fail to see how could Romanian's army influence that decision as Romania was forced to sign a peace treaty with the Central Powers in the beginning of 1918 which meant the disolution of the romanian army.
Following WWII SU took once again Bessarabia, together with other terrirtories from Romania, a stalinist type ethnic cleasing followed...
To my knowledge, today, the country of Moldova comprises most of Bessarabia (without some countys) and some part of Ukraine, as the russians following their divide et impera rule took some parts of Bessarabia and gave them to Ukraine and took some parts of Ukrain and gave them to the soviet republic of Moldova.
This is what I could gather from the net and from some books I have regarding this subject, I have to say that it took some work as there are very few doccuments available in english... Allthough off topic I my post is interesting for the current discussion.
Regards
To Rommel:
There are some ukrainians who call themselves Russians...
There are some Moldovans who call themselves Romanians...
As there were some Luxembourgians who called themselves Germans (in 1940-44)...
It means nothing... Yes, Moldova was united sometimes... But after 1812 it was splitted up... And each part of Moldova came by their own way - Romanian Moldovans became Romanians (it is normal), but Basarabian Moldovans became Moldovans...
The same thing was with Russians & Ukrainians - sometimes they were the same nation, then Ukraine became Polish and so on...
There are some ukrainians who call themselves Russians...
There are some Moldovans who call themselves Romanians...
As there were some Luxembourgians who called themselves Germans (in 1940-44)...
It means nothing... Yes, Moldova was united sometimes... But after 1812 it was splitted up... And each part of Moldova came by their own way - Romanian Moldovans became Romanians (it is normal), but Basarabian Moldovans became Moldovans...
The same thing was with Russians & Ukrainians - sometimes they were the same nation, then Ukraine became Polish and so on...
- Cezarprimo
- Member
- Posts: 121
- Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 11:28
RedArmy, following your logic the palestinians living in Israel are israelis...
There is a difference between nationality and citizenship, moldovans recognized themselves as romanians in 1859 when Moldova unite with Wallachia and than Bessarabia was part of Moldova. (Bessarabia was retaken by Russia in 1878).
To what I' ve read this theory of ethnic moldovans, different from romanians, and inhabiting Bessarabia is an invention of SU historians, now, who belives the commies ?...
There is a difference between nationality and citizenship, moldovans recognized themselves as romanians in 1859 when Moldova unite with Wallachia and than Bessarabia was part of Moldova. (Bessarabia was retaken by Russia in 1878).
To what I' ve read this theory of ethnic moldovans, different from romanians, and inhabiting Bessarabia is an invention of SU historians, now, who belives the commies ?...
To Cezarprimo
First of all you're wrong - Basarabia was a part of Russian empire since 1812. In 1878 Romania (Russia's ally in war against Turkey) oficially declared that Basarabia would be Russian forever (or something like that) - but Russia gave Dobrugea Region to Romania as an answer.
In 1918 Romania forgot about 1878 Declaration.
Second - tell to Moldovans that they are not Moldovans - and we'll see if they are comunist's dream or not... Once again, Moldovans exist. But West during Cold War always supported anti-Soviet point of view, i.e. there are no Moldovans, but Romanians...
First of all you're wrong - Basarabia was a part of Russian empire since 1812. In 1878 Romania (Russia's ally in war against Turkey) oficially declared that Basarabia would be Russian forever (or something like that) - but Russia gave Dobrugea Region to Romania as an answer.
In 1918 Romania forgot about 1878 Declaration.
Second - tell to Moldovans that they are not Moldovans - and we'll see if they are comunist's dream or not... Once again, Moldovans exist. But West during Cold War always supported anti-Soviet point of view, i.e. there are no Moldovans, but Romanians...