Transport ships of USSR in 1941-1945 - any info!!

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 20 Mar 2006 14:58

As for "Mars".
That was a small tanker (was built in 1912 by Dutch A.Vuijk & Zonen) - 1261 t; 71.75õ10.90x3.95m. Renamed in 1936 as "Mars", Germany gave this ship to USSR in 1940. It was mobilized in summer 1941 as military transport VT-533.
The ship was found in Baltic Sea quite far away from the shore (6 miles from Libava), so it was not exploded or scuttled in Tallinn port directly (that is why I couldn't find this name in the list of Soviet ships, which were exploded/scuttled in Soviet ports to prevent their capture!).

Military transport/tanker VT-533 was in the list of warships of Black Sea navy on 15.5.42 and 1.1.43, but that was on paper. Very probably, VT-533 was under reequipment in Tallinn when the war began. I found a mention that ship was towed into open sea and exploded 28.08.1941 to prevent its capture.

Other possibility - tanker VT-533 ("Mars") survived the war (as I found a mention that tanker "Mars" participated in the convoy from Kronstadt to Tallinn via Helsinki 04-06.05.1945) and was sunk near Libava during tests of new navy weapon after WWII (it was not exploded on mine after WWII as it could be visible from damages).

Underwater photos of "Mars" (May, 2004) - see the damages, it was not just scuttled for sure, it was exploded.
http://www.diveclub.lv/img/uploaded_img ... 004_09.jpg
http://www.diveclub.lv/img/uploaded_img ... 004_05.jpg
http://www.diveclub.lv/img/uploaded_img ... 004_03.jpg
http://www.diveclub.lv/img/uploaded_img ... 004_07.jpg
http://www.diveclub.lv/img/uploaded_img ... 004_08.jpg

mjbollinger
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Mars

Post by mjbollinger » 20 Mar 2006 22:48

Thanks. This is a good summary of the scenarios.

One thing -- I found evidence that MARS was in Stockholm when the Soviets took over the Baltic states in 1940 and that the Soviets claimed the ship at that time.

MB

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Post by BIGpanzer » 20 Mar 2006 23:00

Yes, Marty, I also found the mention that "Mars" was in Stockholm when USSR took over Estonia in 1940 and it was given to USSR with the diplomatic help of German embassy in Sweden. As many ships of ex-Baltic states kept their names and home ports (some kept their captains and crew even) "Mars" moved to Tallinn for repair and reequipment.

What about "Balaklava" - see my recent post before "Mars"?

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Balaklava, Kamyshin and Lepse

Post by mjbollinger » 21 Mar 2006 12:43

BP,

I think your information is correct. The three ships were scuttled for a breakwater between 12.10.42 and 16.10.42. There is an erroneous reference to BALAKLAVA being scuttled in Odessa in the Starke/Schell Registers and this has been the source of much confusion. Also, Badyakin wrote an article on the trophies from the Black and Azov Seas during WWII and he does not mention any of these three ships.

MB

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Post by Dido » 21 Mar 2006 14:17

Here is an interesting story relevant to the KHASAN. For a few months she was technicaly a Soviet vessel

http://www.oldendorff.de/story/schiffsb ... en/20.html

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Post by BIGpanzer » 21 Mar 2006 15:13

Strange, "Khasan" was a diesel ship, built in 1928 - but that old steamer was built in 1880 :roll: Or I don't understand smth :roll: :roll:

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German transfers or sales to USSR

Post by mjbollinger » 21 Mar 2006 18:02

Dido / BP,

This is an interesting an unexplored topic. Why did Germany transfer or sell ships such as these to the USSR. What was the secret agreement? Here are some more strange cases:

Soya VII (Соыа ВИИ)
Builder: Lübecker Flender-Werke A.G.
Location: Lübeck
Delivered in 1938 / 1240 GRT
Chonology:
1938 Completed as INGER BENEDICTE (A/S Inger) 05.38
1940 SOYA II (Rederi A/B/ Wallenco)
1940 Tanker No.12 (Soviet Navy) possible commercial sale
1941 Removed from roster; possibly mined Gulf of Finland 24 08.41


Vyborg (Выборг)
WWII Registration: UXJD
Builder: Deutsche Werft A.G. Betrieb Finkenwärder
Location: Hamburg
Delivered in 1934 / 3183 GRT
Chonology:
1934 Completed as CAIRO (NDL) on 24.08.34
1934 MEMEL 05.09.34
1940 Sold to USSR on 31.07.40
1940 VYBORG (BGMP)
1940 VYBORG (BF) mobilized as transport
1941 Torpedoed 3-4.07.41 in Gulf of Finland by Finnish submarine Vesikko




"Tallinn (Таллинн)
WWII Registration: UURM
Builder: F. Schichau GmbH
Location: Danzig
Delivered in 1939 / 4479 GRT
Chronology:
1939 Laid down as MARIO (Cia Commercio e Navegacao)
1939 Shipyard and ship seized by town of Danzig 01.09.39
1939 Danzig integrated in Germany; ban on ship exports 28.09.39
1940 Shipyard negotiates sale with USSR 03.40
1941 TALLINN (EGMP) -- handed over to USSR 04.41
1941 Arrested in Gdynia following invasion of USSR 16.06.41
1941 Handed to by Germany; awarded by Berlin prize court 07.08.41
1941 DITMAR KOEL (Hanseatische Reederei Emil Offen und Co.)
1944 Torpedoed by Norwegian MTB 653 at Bjørnefjord with 37 killed 07.12.44


Builder: Deutsche Werft A.G. Betrieb Finkenwärder
Location: Hamburg
Delivered in 1939 / 8050 GRT
Chonology:
1939 Laid down as DORSANUM (Ango-Saxon Petroleum) 02.07.39
1939 Seized by Germany while under contruction 03.09.39
1939 OSSAG II (Kriegsmarine) as Navy tanker 23.09.39
1940 No-2 (USSR) purchased 20.04.40
1940 Handed over to USSR in Libau 11.05.40
1941 Damaged by Ju-88 aircraft 25.08.41 off Juminda
1941 Mined and sunk 28-29.08.41 off Juminda

Can anyone explain these?

MB

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Post by BIGpanzer » 21 Mar 2006 18:48

This is really interesting facts! I will try to find some info about this. May be that was just commercial exchange - Germany gave different kind of equipment to USSR for Soviet grain/corn, for example. Or because of some agreements of Soviet-German non-agression treaty, I don't know. Soviet shipyards produced modern civil ships of different classes but they were not completely enough for sure as USSR also began to built a lot of warships in the end of 1930s at the same shipyards and the large country, surrounded by seas, needed a large merchant fleet.


As for losses of ships you've mentioned, Marty:

1. Soya VII (Ñîûà ÂÈÈ 8O :D ) - should be Ñîÿ VII (7th Soya) - seems to be the Japanese name :) I couldn't find the info of Soviet ship with such strange name......

2. "Vyborg" - military transport (cargo diesel ship, BGMP; 3183 GRT). It was attacked (artillery fire) during the navigation from Leningrad to Tallinn by Finnish submarine "Vetehinen" 03.07.1941, the ship began to return back and avoided the attack. In three hours the ship was torpedoed by another Finnish submarine "Vesikko" (Gulf of Finland, east from Gogland island) - all crew members except one man were saved by Soviet patrol boats from the life-boats.

3. As for "Tallinn" - I have differ info. That was much larger ship (7800 GRT steamer of Estonian State Shipping Company, EGMP) and it was captured with 40 men crew in port Gotenhafen in June 1941 when German-Soviet war began.
No mistakes?

4. What was the name of the last ship, Marty? You forgot to give it - just No. 2 :D.

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More data

Post by mjbollinger » 21 Mar 2006 19:31

BP,

No.2 is the name of the last ship. It was a military tanker.

As for TALLINN, I think your info comes from Суда Министерства морского флота, погибшие в период Великой Отечественной войны 1941-1945 гг. I suspect they confused Displacement with GRT. Their tables switch back and forth and this one might have been mislabeled. I'm pretty sure of the 4,480 number.

The ship was SOYA II before it was sold to the USSR. Afterwards it was named Tanker No. 12. This ship probably doesn't belong with the other three as it was a commercial sale from Sweden.

MB

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Post by BIGpanzer » 21 Mar 2006 23:52

mjbollinger wrote:
No.2 is the name of the last ship. It was a military tanker.
Yes, that was possible (just "tanker No.2"). But it seems quite strange for me that the ship was designated "tanker No.2" just after purchase - it should have the name if used by some of Soviet state seagoing companies, and in the case of military mobilization renamed as "tanker No.2"......
You've mentioned that the ship was damaged by German bomber 25.08.1941 and in 3-4 days was mined and sunk near cape Juminda (Baltic Sea).
AFAIK Soviets lost many transport ships (51 transport ships, 1 auxiliary vessel, 15 warships ) during one navigation 25-29.08.1941 (notoriously convoys No. 1-3 from evacuated Tallinn naval base to Kronshtadt/Leningrad - 112 warships and only 23 transport ships could reach Kronshtadt) because of strong mine fields and German bomber attacks, also because of bad organisation of operation (warships received the order not to defend transport ships, but to reach Kronshtadt independently).
And this tragedy is very good described and documented - tankers No.2 and No.12 were in those convoys.

Military tanker No. 12 (ex-Soya II) was sunk 29.08.1941 5 miles from Gogland island (not 24.08.1941) by German bombers (stern was damaged by bomb, it was not mined!). The ship transported ammunition, fuels, 300 infantrymen/pioneers from 10th infantry corps (almost all were lost). Tanker No.12 was armed with several AA guns and sank in combat with bombers. The ship was found by divers very recently (in summer 2005) in the Gulf of Finland. The steel plate "¹ 236, LUBECKER FLENDER-WERK, LUBECK, 1938" was found on deck-house.
Underwater photos of T-12 (the ship is in excellent condition with ammunition and all marine equipment on board, depth~65 m):
http://www.baltic-sunken-ships.ru/data/pic/T-12_d.jpg
http://www.baltic-sunken-ships.ru/data/pic/T-12_1.jpg
http://www.baltic-sunken-ships.ru/data/pic/T-12_3.jpg
http://www.baltic-sunken-ships.ru/data/pic/T-12_6.jpg
http://www.baltic-sunken-ships.ru/data/pic/T-12_7.jpg

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Tanker No.12

Post by mjbollinger » 22 Mar 2006 08:47

Thanks, BP. I had never come across a clear indication of the cause of loss of Tanker No. 12.

The evacuation of Tallinn will take up a whole section in my book. It is a very dramatic story, and also the best "success" of a offensive minelaying operation. The losses were horrific especially for the ships mined during the frst night and then subject to aerial attack the following day.

Didn't know that divers had found Tanker No. 12. Fascinating. Thanks again.

MB

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Post by BIGpanzer » 25 Mar 2006 00:34

mjbollinger wrote:
Why did Germany transfer or sell ships such as these to the USSR. What was the secret agreement?
There were no secret agreements but just Soviet-German non-agression pact from 1939 and following important economic agreements 1939-1941 (credit agreement from 19.08.1939, for example). As for civil ships - Germany obligated to built for USSR several transport and fishing ships. Till 1941 Germany provided USSR with the following ships (costed 11.5 millions marks) - tanker with cargo capacity 12.000 t, cargo-passenger ships "Memel", "Peri", "Palacia" and floating dock. Also many marine equipment was sent to USSR. It should be noted also that since 26.10.1939 Soviet trading delegation (head - people's commissar of shipbuilding industry I.F.Tevosyan) was in Germany, making the Soviet orders for German industry.
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 25 Mar 2006 18:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Soviet-German Agreement

Post by mjbollinger » 25 Mar 2006 02:08

Hi BP,

Do you have a source for this information? I'd like to get ahold of the actual agreement text. Where is the information on civil ships actually mentioned. This would be useful for my book when I get to that part. (I'm only up to about 1927 right now and hope to get to 1937 by Summer).

MB

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Post by BIGpanzer » 25 Mar 2006 20:46

Do you have a source for this information? I'd like to get ahold of the actual agreement text. Where is the information on civil ships actually mentioned. This would be useful for my book when I get to that part. (I'm only up to about 1927 right now and hope to get to 1937 by Summer).
Don't forget to send me the first copy of your future book with your signature as the present :wink:

I've found the full texts of this agreements (English translation) several months ago in Internet, so I need to "google" them again. At the moment I have the following Russian links with similar info:
http://www.profile.edu.ru/deps/hum/kiri ... rewar.html (with all necessary original references)
http://www.tuad.nsk.ru/~history/Author/ ... heviak.htm

I found some info about Soviet-built cargo-passenger diesel ships of "Delfin"-type (two were built by Sevastopol Shipyard in 1930 - "Delfin"/later "A. Chekhov" and "Chaika"/later "N. Ostrovskij": laid down in 1927, launched in 1929, accepted in 1931) - they were used by Azov State Shipping Company (AGMP) before WWII.
Specifications: 2625 t; 79.9x12 m; 345+50 passengers (up to 492); 2x715 hp diesels; 12.5 knots.
Both were sunk during WWII.
"A. Chekhov" was used as the hospital ship of Black Sea navy (ChF) during WWII and made many dangerous navigations (was damaged by German torpedo bombers in July 1941 despite the big red crosses on deck and on boards). It was exploded on ground mine 14.04.1942 (Kerch strait) during the navigation from Novorossiysk to Kamysh-Burun with cargos/men on board. Forecastle of the ship was torn off and 200 men were lost, 50 were wounded. Soon the heavily damaged ship was bombed by German aviation and sank. Its topsides were cut after WWII to free the strait for large transport ships, but the parts of the hull are still visible at the bottom for divers.

"N. Ostrovskij" was used as the mine-layer of ChF since 08.07.1940 (armament 2x76mm + 4x45mm guns + 6 MGs, 250 mines). Mine-layer laid more than 6000 mines since the beginning of the war under the enemy fire and participated in several operations of ChF (transported soldiers from 345th infantry division to Sevastopol in December 1941 together with other warships, for example). It was attacked by German bombers at Tuapse Dockyard during small repair 23.03.1942 (German bombing raid against Tuapse port). The ship sank after three direct 500-kg bomb hits during the combat with bombers, 18 crewmembers were killed.

http://www.sea.infoflot.ru/photo/1/237.jpg ("A. Chekhov")
http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/minelayers/pic/ostrovsky.jpg ("N. Ostrovskij")
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 26 Mar 2006 19:28, edited 4 times in total.

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Post by BIGpanzer » 26 Mar 2006 00:24

One more type of Soviet-built cargo-passenger diesel ships was ships of "Mudjug"-type (3 were built by Admiralty Shipyard in Leningrad in 1930 - "Mudjug", "Karelija" and "Pomorie") for the north seas.
Specifications: 1320 t; 60x9.2 m; up to 138-250 passengers (27 in state cabins only) + 223-430 t of cargos; 2x400 hp diesels; 10.2 knots; 4000 miles range; 34 men crew.

"Mudjug" and "Karelija" survived the war. "Pomorie" was exploded on mines 22.08.1941 (White Sea, Kandalaksha gulf) during the navigation from Kandalaksha to Umba with cargos and passengers. Crewmembers and passengers tried to reach seashore on life-boat and float but only two of them could do that because of stormy weather (another 32 crewmembers and 30 passengers were lost).

http://www.sea.infoflot.ru/shems/1/15 (blueprints of "Mudjug"-type cargo-passenger ships)
http://www.sea.infoflot.ru/photo/1/12.jpg ("Mudjug")
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 02 May 2006 10:55, edited 1 time in total.

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