BP,
You are correct. I have not found any Russian sources describing the loss of Ural in the Kerch strait in 1942. It is not in the Soviet Navy's official list of war losses and damage, which I have found to be the definitive source for this type of information. It is also not mentioned as having been lost in Spasski's book on Soviet shipbuilding, which I also consider to be definitive.
My only source of information is the Schell / Starke registers. I have found that information to be reasonably accurate in most cases, but often very innaccurate in others, especially in obscure cases such as this.
The timing also seems odd. This was during the height of fighting during the second battle of Kerch. Many merchant ships were lost in January and February while attempting to bring supplies to the Soviet forces. By March it seems the Soviet high command had concluded that the merchant ships were too vulnerable and they relied instead on faster warships to reinforce the front. It would seem quite odd that Ural would be towed through the Kerch straight at this time.
Other incomplete ships (e.g., Diktatura) had been moved from Nikolaev during the first weeks of the war and relocated to Mariupol. Diktatura was then moved in October 1941 through the Kerch Strait to Novorossiysk. It would have been more logical to relocate Ural at the same time.
MB
Transport ships of USSR in 1941-1945 - any info!!
mjbollinger,
1. where does your information that "Ural" was lost near Kerch come from?
And why the Russians should try to evacuate the incomplete tanker in April 1942 from the Sea of Azov? They prepared their offensive against Charkov, hoping to smash the German armies in the South. Why then this unnecessary measure, which would put the tanker at risk?
2. You've mentioned a ship named "Diktatura", never heard of it! Do you have additional informations (like always
)
Regards
Klaus Günther
1. where does your information that "Ural" was lost near Kerch come from?
And why the Russians should try to evacuate the incomplete tanker in April 1942 from the Sea of Azov? They prepared their offensive against Charkov, hoping to smash the German armies in the South. Why then this unnecessary measure, which would put the tanker at risk?
2. You've mentioned a ship named "Diktatura", never heard of it! Do you have additional informations (like always
)Regards
Klaus Günther
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mjbollinger
- Member
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- Joined: 14 Sep 2005, 02:23
- Location: Great Falls, VA
Hi Klaus,
My information comes from the Starke/Schell registers, a compilation of data on the history of merchant ships, organized by volume according to the year the ship was completed. Here is the entry for Ural from the 1934-35 edition:
274. URAL (УРАЛ) RU 2ME (aft) (9)
6,377 U. S. S. R. 424.7* x 54.5
T Sudostroitel’nyi zavod im. Andre Marti, Nikolayev #206 M-2781
Laid down 2/30 as URALNEFT’, lchd. 1934
Sunk April 1942 while still incomplete in Kerch Strait, raised 1944 and laid up – actually completed in 1956 at Odessa
56 - Chernomorskoye gosudarstvyennoye morskoye parokhodstvo, Odessa
64 - Chernomorskoye morskoye parokhodstvo, Odessa
Broken up in the U. S. S. R. 1974
As mentioned above, there was no information on this incident in 1942 in Russian sources.
As for Diktatura, you may better know the ship by its later name, Proletarii. These were two very large and fast cargo ships designed for service in the Far East. With displacement of 19,030 tons (11,400 DWT) and at just over 500 feet in length, these would have been the largest cargo ships built in the Soviet Union. Speed was over 13 knots based on a twin-diesel propulsion plant with 5,700 HP. Neither was completed.
Proletarii (Пролетарий)
WWII Registration: ---
Builder: States Shipyard ""61 Kommunar"" #200
Location: Nikolaev
Delivered in xxxx / 11460 GRT
Type: (D) Trud
CHRONOLOGY:
1931 Laid down as DIKTATURA
1933 Launched as DIKTATURA
???? Renamed PROLETARII
???? At some point taken from Nikolaev to Mariupol
1941 Incomplete hull moved from Mariupol under tow by MAKAROV 10.41
1942 Sunk in massive air attack in Novorossiysk 02.07.42
Trud (Труд)
WWII Registration: ---
Builder: States Shipyard ""61 Kommunar"" #200
Location: Nikolaev
Delivered in xxxx / 11460 GRT
Type: (D) Trud
CHRONOLOGY:
1931 Laid down as TRUD
1933 Launched as TRUD
???? At some point taken from Nikolaev to Mariupol
1941 Captured incomplete in Mariupol 08.10.41
1943 Scuttled unfinished via explosion by Germans in Mariupol 20.09.43
1944 Refloated by EPRON -- probably broken up
MB
My information comes from the Starke/Schell registers, a compilation of data on the history of merchant ships, organized by volume according to the year the ship was completed. Here is the entry for Ural from the 1934-35 edition:
274. URAL (УРАЛ) RU 2ME (aft) (9)
6,377 U. S. S. R. 424.7* x 54.5
T Sudostroitel’nyi zavod im. Andre Marti, Nikolayev #206 M-2781
Laid down 2/30 as URALNEFT’, lchd. 1934
Sunk April 1942 while still incomplete in Kerch Strait, raised 1944 and laid up – actually completed in 1956 at Odessa
56 - Chernomorskoye gosudarstvyennoye morskoye parokhodstvo, Odessa
64 - Chernomorskoye morskoye parokhodstvo, Odessa
Broken up in the U. S. S. R. 1974
As mentioned above, there was no information on this incident in 1942 in Russian sources.
As for Diktatura, you may better know the ship by its later name, Proletarii. These were two very large and fast cargo ships designed for service in the Far East. With displacement of 19,030 tons (11,400 DWT) and at just over 500 feet in length, these would have been the largest cargo ships built in the Soviet Union. Speed was over 13 knots based on a twin-diesel propulsion plant with 5,700 HP. Neither was completed.
Proletarii (Пролетарий)
WWII Registration: ---
Builder: States Shipyard ""61 Kommunar"" #200
Location: Nikolaev
Delivered in xxxx / 11460 GRT
Type: (D) Trud
CHRONOLOGY:
1931 Laid down as DIKTATURA
1933 Launched as DIKTATURA
???? Renamed PROLETARII
???? At some point taken from Nikolaev to Mariupol
1941 Incomplete hull moved from Mariupol under tow by MAKAROV 10.41
1942 Sunk in massive air attack in Novorossiysk 02.07.42
Trud (Труд)
WWII Registration: ---
Builder: States Shipyard ""61 Kommunar"" #200
Location: Nikolaev
Delivered in xxxx / 11460 GRT
Type: (D) Trud
CHRONOLOGY:
1931 Laid down as TRUD
1933 Launched as TRUD
???? At some point taken from Nikolaev to Mariupol
1941 Captured incomplete in Mariupol 08.10.41
1943 Scuttled unfinished via explosion by Germans in Mariupol 20.09.43
1944 Refloated by EPRON -- probably broken up
MB
Yes, no any mentions in Russian sources/lists about sinking of unfinished tanker "Ural" in 1942 and its salvage in 1944 - may be such an info represents speculations only and evacuated "Ural" just stayed somewhere as unfinished ship until it was completed in 1956 by Odessa shipyard....There is only info that medium tanker "Ural" was still incomplete by Nikolaev shipyard in 1941 and nothing more....MB wrote:
You are correct. I have not found any Russian sources describing the loss of Ural in the Kerch strait in 1942. It is not in the Soviet Navy's official list of war losses and damage, which I have found to be the definitive source for this type of information. It is also not mentioned as having been lost in Spasski's book on Soviet shipbuilding, which I also consider to be definitive.
My only source of information is the Schell / Starke registers. I have found that information to be reasonably accurate in most cases, but often very innaccurate in others, especially in obscure cases such as this.
As for foreign sources - Miramar Ship Index also mentions 04.1942 as the date when incomplete tanker sank and 1956 - when it was completed in Odessa: http://www.miramarshipindex.org.nz/ship ... 66&number=
Does the 1934-35 edition mentions the following years - 1942, 1944, 1956?...MB wrote:
My information comes from the Starke/Schell registers, a compilation of data on the history of merchant ships, organized by volume according to the year the ship was completed. Here is the entry for Ural from the 1934-35 edition:
274. URAL (ÓÐÀË) RU 2ME (aft) (9)
6,377 U. S. S. R. 424.7* x 54.5
T Sudostroitel’nyi zavod im. Andre Marti, Nikolayev #206 M-2781
Laid down 2/30 as URALNEFT’, lchd. 1934
Sunk April 1942 while still incomplete in Kerch Strait, raised 1944 and laid up – actually completed in 1956 at Odessa
56 - Chernomorskoye gosudarstvyennoye morskoye parokhodstvo, Odessa
64 - Chernomorskoye morskoye parokhodstvo, Odessa
Broken up in the U. S. S. R. 1974
Chernomorskoe gosudarstvennoe morskoe parokhodstvo [no need to transliterate "e" as "ye" here in my opinion], ChGMP = Black Sea State Steamship Company.
Agree. Spring 1942 was the hard time for Soviets on Black Sea. As for lost ships - 23 Soviet merchant ships of medium/large tonnage were lost on Black Sea in January-May 1942: mainly they participated in Kerch-Feodosiya landing operation or transported reinforcements to Sevastopol and Kamysh-Burun port/Kerch [or wounded men back from Sevastopol], almost all those ships were sunk by enemy aircraft despite of escort patrol ships. Warships can't replace merchant ships completelly in transportation of men and cargos, so merchant ships continued their daily very dangerous runs.MB wrote:
The timing also seems odd. This was during the height of fighting during the second battle of Kerch. Many merchant ships were lost in January and February while attempting to bring supplies to the Soviet forces. By March it seems the Soviet high command had concluded that the merchant ships were too vulnerable and they relied instead on faster warships to reinforce the front. It would seem quite odd that Ural would be towed through the Kerch straight at this time
Two large dry-cargo diesel-electric ships "Trud" and "Proletarij" [incomplete and nonself-propelled, just hulls] were towed from Nikolaev to Mariupol indeed to prevent their capture, they stayed in Mariupol port till the end of September 1941 [the ships were towed from Mariupol around 25.-27.09.1941, "Trud" left Mariupol before "Proletarij"].MB wrote:
Other incomplete ships (e.g., Diktatura) had been moved from Nikolaev during the first weeks of the war and relocated to Mariupol. Diktatura was then moved in October 1941 through the Kerch Strait to Novorossiysk. It would have been more logical to relocate Ural at the same time.
Regards, BP
Large dry-cargo diesel-electric ships "Trud" and "Proletarij" were very interesting and famous among shipbuilders ships, but I read only a few info about them. Do you have blue-prints/pictures/photos of them?MB wrote:
As for Diktatura, you may better know the ship by its later name, Proletarii. These were two very large and fast cargo ships designed for service in the Far East. With displacement of 19,030 tons (11,400 DWT) and at just over 500 feet in length, these would have been the largest cargo ships built in the Soviet Union. Speed was over 13 knots based on a twin-diesel propulsion plant with 5,700 HP. Neither was completed.
Proletarii (Ïðîëåòàðèé)
WWII Registration: ---
Builder: States Shipyard ""61 Kommunar"" #200
Location: Nikolaev
Delivered in xxxx / 11460 GRT
Type: (D) Trud
CHRONOLOGY:
1931 Laid down as DIKTATURA
1933 Launched as DIKTATURA
???? Renamed PROLETARII
???? At some point taken from Nikolaev to Mariupol
1941 Incomplete hull moved from Mariupol under tow by MAKAROV 10.41
1942 Sunk in massive air attack in Novorossiysk 02.07.42
Trud (Òðóä)
WWII Registration: ---
Builder: States Shipyard ""61 Kommunar"" #200
Location: Nikolaev
Delivered in xxxx / 11460 GRT
Type: (D) Trud
CHRONOLOGY:
1931 Laid down as TRUD
1933 Launched as TRUD
???? At some point taken from Nikolaev to Mariupol
1941 Captured incomplete in Mariupol 08.10.41
1943 Scuttled unfinished via explosion by Germans in Mariupol 20.09.43
1944 Refloated by EPRON -- probably broken up
Yes, those two ships were the largest Soviet-built merchant ships of preWWII period [IIRC very large tanker with cargo capacity near 18.500 tons was designed in USSR in the mid1930s but it wasn't built because of increasing the use of oil for domestic needs].
Important notes:
1. Hulls of "Trud" and "Proletarij" were towed from Mariupol ~25.-27.09.1941 [so that happened not 10.1941, and "Trud" couldn't be captured by Germans in Mariupol as the ship left the port before "Proletarij" even....There is no name "Trud" in the list of ships which were exploded/scuttled/left in Soviet ports, also such large and important ships [hulls] should be towed from Mariupol first of all]. The detailed memoires of first mate from "Pugachev" [unfinished cargo ship also towed from Mariupol] is known, he described this in details.
2. "Proletarij" was sunk on the berth during strong German air raid against Novorossisk [64 Ju.88 under the protection of 15 Bf.109 dropped 175 bombs during 15 min] 02.07.1942 and the ship was raised in 1944 by Emergency rescue service of Black Sea Navy [as I've already mentioned EPRON was renamed in 1942]. What happened with "Trud" during/after WWII I don't know.
Regards, BP
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 01 Sep 2007, 19:30, edited 3 times in total.
I have one question about Caspian tankers.
IIRC specialized [oil/gasoline] tankers of "Lenin"-type were developed by engineers from "Krasnoe Sormovo" shipyard in 1925-1926 using Caspian oil-carrying motor schooners "Volga" and "Krestyanin" as project prototype [the idea was to develop new larger tankers with strengthened hulls].
Does anybody have info about "Volga", was she used during WWII on Caspian Sea?
As for "Krestyanin" - that was Russian-built tanker "Emmanuil Nobel" [3779 brt, 115.9 m length, 14.2 m width, 2 diesels 2800 hp] built in 1909 by Kolomensky engineering plant [Kolomna, Moscow region]. The tanker was used by worlds largest oil company "Partnership company of brothers Nobel in Russia" before Revolution, renamed as "Dmitry Donskoi" in 1919 by White Forces and as "Krestyanin" in 1920 by Reds. The old tanker was deleted in 1960s only.
Regards, BP
P.S. Photo of gasoline tanker "General Azi Aslanov" - the last [12th] specialized diesel tanker of "Lenin"-type. That ship wasn't finished before WWII and it was used as nonself-propelled barge in lower reaches of Volga for transportation of ammunition and other military cargos to defenders of Stalingrad in 1942. In 1949 the hull of "General Azi Aslanov" damaged by shell fragments was towed to shipyard "Krasnoe Sormovo" where it was finished during one year as one of the best and newest tankers [6243 brt] of the period - the first diesel-electric ship on Caspian Sea; its pumps could transfer gasoline to oil-carrying river barges in motion, without any stop of tanker in port.
http://www.mnpglobal.com/images/magazine/Page_15_1.jpg [tanker "General Azi Aslanov", 1950]
IIRC specialized [oil/gasoline] tankers of "Lenin"-type were developed by engineers from "Krasnoe Sormovo" shipyard in 1925-1926 using Caspian oil-carrying motor schooners "Volga" and "Krestyanin" as project prototype [the idea was to develop new larger tankers with strengthened hulls].
Does anybody have info about "Volga", was she used during WWII on Caspian Sea?
As for "Krestyanin" - that was Russian-built tanker "Emmanuil Nobel" [3779 brt, 115.9 m length, 14.2 m width, 2 diesels 2800 hp] built in 1909 by Kolomensky engineering plant [Kolomna, Moscow region]. The tanker was used by worlds largest oil company "Partnership company of brothers Nobel in Russia" before Revolution, renamed as "Dmitry Donskoi" in 1919 by White Forces and as "Krestyanin" in 1920 by Reds. The old tanker was deleted in 1960s only.
Regards, BP
P.S. Photo of gasoline tanker "General Azi Aslanov" - the last [12th] specialized diesel tanker of "Lenin"-type. That ship wasn't finished before WWII and it was used as nonself-propelled barge in lower reaches of Volga for transportation of ammunition and other military cargos to defenders of Stalingrad in 1942. In 1949 the hull of "General Azi Aslanov" damaged by shell fragments was towed to shipyard "Krasnoe Sormovo" where it was finished during one year as one of the best and newest tankers [6243 brt] of the period - the first diesel-electric ship on Caspian Sea; its pumps could transfer gasoline to oil-carrying river barges in motion, without any stop of tanker in port.
http://www.mnpglobal.com/images/magazine/Page_15_1.jpg [tanker "General Azi Aslanov", 1950]
-
mjbollinger
- Member
- Posts: 238
- Joined: 14 Sep 2005, 02:23
- Location: Great Falls, VA
BP,
I'm not sure of your conclusion regarding Trud.
First, Pavlii in his book "Azov Sketches" says the ship was left behind in the hurry to evacuate the port. I consider Pavlii to be quite authoritative on matters of the Azov fleets.
Second, I have a photo of Trud in unfinished condition . The ship appears to have been either sunk or scuttled: the stern is below water though the rest of the ship is visible alongside a pier. The caption on the photo says "Trud, 1944, Mariupol". The source of the photo and caption is Boris Lemachko, and he has been very reliable.
MB
I'm not sure of your conclusion regarding Trud.
First, Pavlii in his book "Azov Sketches" says the ship was left behind in the hurry to evacuate the port. I consider Pavlii to be quite authoritative on matters of the Azov fleets.
Second, I have a photo of Trud in unfinished condition . The ship appears to have been either sunk or scuttled: the stern is below water though the rest of the ship is visible alongside a pier. The caption on the photo says "Trud, 1944, Mariupol". The source of the photo and caption is Boris Lemachko, and he has been very reliable.
MB
Hello, Marty!
Probably the version described in your sources [that unfinished dry-cargo ship "Trud" was left in Mariupol by Soviets] is possible. Nevertheless, we should investigate this case more carefully as captain Igor Bobyr [mate of unfinished cargo ship "Pugachev" that time] wrote the following in his book "To know life and sea", 2005:
http://life-and-sea.mavrin.net/chapter05.html
P.S. As possible versions - "Trud" was towed back to Mariupol in autumn 1941 for some reason (very strong German air attack danger?) and left there [so captured by Germans], or "Trud" was evacuated from Mariupol successfully and it was towed back to liberated Mariupol in 1944 only where the ship water-logged....
Probably the version described in your sources [that unfinished dry-cargo ship "Trud" was left in Mariupol by Soviets] is possible. Nevertheless, we should investigate this case more carefully as captain Igor Bobyr [mate of unfinished cargo ship "Pugachev" that time] wrote the following in his book "To know life and sea", 2005:
http://life-and-sea.mavrin.net/chapter05.html
My direct translation of the text, emphasis is mine:Ìàëåíüêàÿ ñïðàâêà î ïîëîæåíèè íà Àçîâüå âî âòîðîé ïîëîâèíå ñåíòÿáðÿ 1941 ãîäà. Çäåñü ñêîïèëîñü ìíîãî ñóäîâ â ò.÷. è íåñàìîõîäíûõ, êîòîðûõ ïðèòàùèëè ñþäà èç òåõ ÷åðíîìîðñêèõ ïîðòîâ, ãäå íàä íèìè íàâèñàëà óãðîçà çàõâàòà ïðîòèâíèêîì.  Ìàðèóïîëüñêîì ïîðòó ñòîÿëè êîðïóñà áîëüøèõ ñóõîãðóçíûõ ñóäîâ "Òðóä" è "Ïðîëåòàðèé" è, óæå çíàêîìûé ÷èòàòåëþ, "Òîâàðèù", à ó ïðè÷àëîâ ñóäîðåìîíòíîãî çàâîäà íàõîäèëèñü íà äîñòðîéêå äâà íåáîëüøèõ òåïëîõîäà "Óëüÿíîâ" è "Ïóãà÷åâ" (îêîëî 3000 òîíí äåäâåéòîì). Ïåðâûé áûë ïî÷òè ïîëíîñòüþ ãîòîâ, íî ìàøèíà íå áûëà çàäåéñòâîâàíà. Âòîðîé - ãîëûé êîðïóñ ñ ïîãðóæåííûìè â íåãî íàâàëîì äåòàëÿìè ãëàâíîé ìàøèíû, ñóäîâûõ óñòðîéñòâ è êîíñòðóêöèé.  ïîðòó íàêîïèëîñü ìíîãî íàðîäíî õîçÿéñòâåííîãî äîáðà, êîòîðîå îæèäàëî ñâîåé ó÷àñòè: áûòü âûâåçåííûì èëè óíè÷òîæåííûì.  ìàðèóïîëüñêîì ýëåâàòîðå çåðíà áûëî "ïîä çàâÿçêó". Íå îñòàâëÿòü æå åãî âðàãó!
Ñî âñåìè ðàáîòàìè ìû óëîæèëèñü â äàäåííûé íàì ñðîê, è 25 ñåíòÿáðÿ êàïèòàí äîëîæèë íà÷àëüñòâó, ÷òî ââåðåííûé åìó òåïëîõîä ãîòîâ ê áóêñèðîâêå.
Ïîðò ïîñòåïåííî ïóñòåë... Óòàùèëè "Òðóä", à çà íèì "Ïðîëåòàðèé". Óâåëè, çàãðóçèâ çåðíîì, ò/õ "Óëüÿíîâ". Ïîäîøëà î÷åðåäü "Ïóãà÷åâó" ñòàòü ê ýëåâàòîðó ïîä ïîãðóçêó. Ïðèíèìàòü çåðíî êàïèòàí ïîðó÷èë ìíå. Ê êîíöó ïîãðóçêè ñóäíî íå äîëæíî èìåòü íè ãðàäóñà êðåíà, íî ïîëó÷èòü íåáîëüøîé äèôôåðåíò íà êîðìó - òàêîâ áûë ïðèêàç.
Regards, BPSmall note about the state of things on Sea of Azov in the second half of September, 1941. A lot of ships gathered there, including nonself-propelled vessels, which were towed from those Black Sea ports where they could be captured by enemy. In Mariupol port there were hulls of large dry-cargo ships "Trud" and "Proletarij", "Tovarishch", and at the berth of shipyard stayed for fitting-out two not large diesel ships "Ulyanov" and "Pugachev" [around 3000 tons of deadweight]. The first ship was almost finished but its engine wasn't in use yet whereas the second one represented just hull with piled parts of main engine, ship equipment and constructions. There were a lot of goods in the port which waited their fate - to be evecuated or destroyed. We didn't want to leave those to the enemy!
We finished all necessary works in time, and 25 September the captain reported to authority that diesel ship ["Pugachev" - BP] is ready for tow. The port became empty step by step. "Trud" was towed away, then "Proletarij". Diesel ship "Ulyanov" was towed after load with grain. It was order for "Pugachev" to move towards grain elevator for loading. The captain ordered me to be responsible for acceptance of cargo for transportation. The ship shouldn't have even one grade of trim after the end of loading, but should have small up angle - such order was given.
P.S. As possible versions - "Trud" was towed back to Mariupol in autumn 1941 for some reason (very strong German air attack danger?) and left there [so captured by Germans], or "Trud" was evacuated from Mariupol successfully and it was towed back to liberated Mariupol in 1944 only where the ship water-logged....
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 01 Sep 2007, 23:20, edited 2 times in total.
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mjbollinger
- Member
- Posts: 238
- Joined: 14 Sep 2005, 02:23
- Location: Great Falls, VA
BP,
Interesting conflict of sources here.
Vadyakin writes in his book on trophies of the Black and Azov Seas (Трофеи на Азово-Черноморском бассейне в период 1941-1944гг.) that Trud was scuttled with demolition charges in Mariupol by the evacuating Germans on 20 September 1943. It was raised in 1944 by EPRON and scrapped. (Yes, I know EPRON was renamed by that point, but the Russian acronym when transliterated into English forms an unpleasant word so I use the old name.) That report is consistent with Pavlii account and with Lemachko's photograph.
Clearly it is at aodds with Bobyr's account.
By the way, Vadyakin also writes that Trud was supposed to have been evacuated in September 1941 but in the end there weren't enough tugs so it was left behind.
MB
MB
Interesting conflict of sources here.
Vadyakin writes in his book on trophies of the Black and Azov Seas (Трофеи на Азово-Черноморском бассейне в период 1941-1944гг.) that Trud was scuttled with demolition charges in Mariupol by the evacuating Germans on 20 September 1943. It was raised in 1944 by EPRON and scrapped. (Yes, I know EPRON was renamed by that point, but the Russian acronym when transliterated into English forms an unpleasant word so I use the old name.) That report is consistent with Pavlii account and with Lemachko's photograph.
Clearly it is at aodds with Bobyr's account.
By the way, Vadyakin also writes that Trud was supposed to have been evacuated in September 1941 but in the end there weren't enough tugs so it was left behind.
MB
MB
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mjbollinger
- Member
- Posts: 238
- Joined: 14 Sep 2005, 02:23
- Location: Great Falls, VA
Marty, I assume that it could be no conflicts between sources mention above - for example, such version is possible: the attempt to evacuate "Trud" from Mariupol port was done indeed between 25.-27.09.1941 [and that event is described by captain Bobyr as eye-witness] but tug(s) had no enough power to tow such large ship across the whole sea and returned back [or "Trud" was just moved by tug(s) to another area of Mariupol in order not to hinder the evacuation of cargos from the port - even more possible]. Nevertheless, it seems quite strange that "Proletarij" was evecuated from Mariupol but "Trud" - not [and why not vice versa].......
For example, you mention that another large dry-cargo ship ("Proletarij") was towed from Mariupol by "Makarov". That was British-built icebreaker "Stepan Makarov" we've discussed shortly above [which exploded on mine 18.11.1941 and lost with all 120 crewmembers during run Tuapse-Sevastopol]. Powerful "tug" indeed [4600 tons, 3 steam engines with 6 boilers and 3 propulsion shafts - 6500 hp]....
Icebreaker "Stepan Makarov" participated in evecuation of heavy nonself-propelled vessels very active that time, just several examples - icebreaker under the guard of 5 warships towed floating dock [cargo capacity 5000 tons] from Nikolaev to Sevastopol 24.07.1941, icebreaker together with tug "Silin" under the guard of gun-boat "Krasnaya Armeniya" [ex-"Elpidifor No. 416"] towed floating dock Marti [cargo capacity 6000 tons] loaded with 26 locomotives, 10 tenders and 52 locomotive crews from Nikolaev to Sevastopol 07.-09.08.1941, "Stepan Makarov" under the guard of warships evecuated also to Sevastopol unfinished cruiser "Kuibyshev" from Nikolaev under strong enemy shelling and several air attacks, icebreaker towed large floating dock from Eisk to Kerch that time, icebreaker towed unfinished diesel ship "Proletarij" during its last run to Mariupol port 25.09.1941 - the date corresponds with Bobyr's info.
http://www.rustrana.ru/article.php?nid=11608 [good article about icebreaker "Stepan Makarov"]
By the way, here are ships from Mariupol port, mentioned in the list of vessels exploded/scuttled during leaving of Soviet ports - http://militera.lib.ru/h/mmf/06.html
Those were:
steamer "Tovarishch" [2472 brt] - damaged by shelling, left 08.10.1941
diesel tanker "Grozny" [4964 brt] - damaged by shelling, left 08.10.1941
steamer "Volgo-Don" [956 brt] - exploded, left 08.10.1941
floating dock [2000 t] - exploded, left 08.10.1941
Regards, BP
P.S.
[ http://www.avianosec.com/foto/badyakin.jpg ]
For example, you mention that another large dry-cargo ship ("Proletarij") was towed from Mariupol by "Makarov". That was British-built icebreaker "Stepan Makarov" we've discussed shortly above [which exploded on mine 18.11.1941 and lost with all 120 crewmembers during run Tuapse-Sevastopol]. Powerful "tug" indeed [4600 tons, 3 steam engines with 6 boilers and 3 propulsion shafts - 6500 hp]....
Icebreaker "Stepan Makarov" participated in evecuation of heavy nonself-propelled vessels very active that time, just several examples - icebreaker under the guard of 5 warships towed floating dock [cargo capacity 5000 tons] from Nikolaev to Sevastopol 24.07.1941, icebreaker together with tug "Silin" under the guard of gun-boat "Krasnaya Armeniya" [ex-"Elpidifor No. 416"] towed floating dock Marti [cargo capacity 6000 tons] loaded with 26 locomotives, 10 tenders and 52 locomotive crews from Nikolaev to Sevastopol 07.-09.08.1941, "Stepan Makarov" under the guard of warships evecuated also to Sevastopol unfinished cruiser "Kuibyshev" from Nikolaev under strong enemy shelling and several air attacks, icebreaker towed large floating dock from Eisk to Kerch that time, icebreaker towed unfinished diesel ship "Proletarij" during its last run to Mariupol port 25.09.1941 - the date corresponds with Bobyr's info.
http://www.rustrana.ru/article.php?nid=11608 [good article about icebreaker "Stepan Makarov"]
By the way, here are ships from Mariupol port, mentioned in the list of vessels exploded/scuttled during leaving of Soviet ports - http://militera.lib.ru/h/mmf/06.html
Those were:
steamer "Tovarishch" [2472 brt] - damaged by shelling, left 08.10.1941
diesel tanker "Grozny" [4964 brt] - damaged by shelling, left 08.10.1941
steamer "Volgo-Don" [956 brt] - exploded, left 08.10.1941
floating dock [2000 t] - exploded, left 08.10.1941
Regards, BP
P.S.
I found the mention about engineer-shipbuilder Alexander Badyakin from Kerch shipyard "Zaliv" who is interested in history of ships of Azov-Black Sea basin - http://www.avianosec.com/badyakin.shtmlMB wrote:
sorry, it is Badyakin, not Vadyakin.
[ http://www.avianosec.com/foto/badyakin.jpg ]
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mjbollinger
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- Location: Great Falls, VA
Thanks. I guess that you wanted to write about victims of the People's Commissariat of Marine Fleet, because VMF [Navy] represents warships only. The Soviet list of lost ships contains several unfinished ships as you know [for example, "Pugachev" and even "Proletarij"].....MB wrote:
Your scenario makes sense. I can only assume Trud was not listed amongst the war victims by VMF because it had not yet been completed, and was not yet in the Soviet registry.
Regards, BP
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mjbollinger
- Member
- Posts: 238
- Joined: 14 Sep 2005, 02:23
- Location: Great Falls, VA
BP,
I'm referring to Потери Боевых Кораблей и Судов Военно-Морского Флота, Транспортных, Рыболовных и Других Судов СССР в Великую Отечественную Войну 1941-1945 гг. This covers (as the title says) warships, naval auxiliaries, transports, fishing ships and all other ships. This is the 809-page book with day-by-day listings by theater (except Pacific) of ships lost and damaged, published in 1959 by the navy general staff (which is why use use VMF shorthand for it.)
MB
I'm referring to Потери Боевых Кораблей и Судов Военно-Морского Флота, Транспортных, Рыболовных и Других Судов СССР в Великую Отечественную Войну 1941-1945 гг. This covers (as the title says) warships, naval auxiliaries, transports, fishing ships and all other ships. This is the 809-page book with day-by-day listings by theater (except Pacific) of ships lost and damaged, published in 1959 by the navy general staff (which is why use use VMF shorthand for it.)
MB
I see. The title of your reference can be translated as "The Losses of warships and ships of Navy, transports, fishing vessels and other ships of USSR during the Great Patriotic war 1941-1945". So naval ships are separated from the merchant/civil ones 
.
I am referring in many cases to "The ships of the Ministry of Marine Fleet, lost during the Great Patriotic war 1941-1945", published by Soviet marine project research institute [Soyuzmorniiproekt] in 1989.
http://militera.lib.ru/h/mmf/index.html
Regards, BP
.I am referring in many cases to "The ships of the Ministry of Marine Fleet, lost during the Great Patriotic war 1941-1945", published by Soviet marine project research institute [Soyuzmorniiproekt] in 1989.
http://militera.lib.ru/h/mmf/index.html
Regards, BP