Transport ships of USSR in 1941-1945 - any info!!

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mjbollinger
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Post by mjbollinger » 03 Sep 2007 13:00

BP,

I have both sources. In my experience, the 1959 listing is far more detailed and precise. It also includes all cases of damage to ships.

MB

kgvm
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Post by kgvm » 03 Sep 2007 13:41

BIGpanzer,
you've mentioned a steamer "Tovarishch" for Mariupol. I assume it was the four-masted-bark with auxiliary engine used as training ship? Do you have any informations about her ultimate fate?
And there was a second sail-training ship in the Black Sea, the "Vega", built in 1901 in Estonia as "Taara". I only know she is said to have been a war loss, too. Do you have additional informations about her?
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Klaus Günther

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 03 Sep 2007 15:56

MB wrote:
I have both sources. In my experience, the 1959 listing is far more detailed and precise. It also includes all cases of damage to ships.
I agree [nevertheless, a lot of new research info appeared since 1959...]. IIRC we discussed the belonging of ship victims initially :wink:
kgvw wrote:
you've mentioned a steamer "Tovarishch" for Mariupol. I assume it was the four-masted-bark with auxiliary engine used as training ship? Do you have any informations about her ultimate fate?
http://www.freunde-der-tovarishch.de/vi ... rishch.htm as basic info about the bark.
That was four-masted bark "Tovarishch" [ex-British clipper "Lauriston", 4750 t, built in 1892], of course. I understand that strange Russian abbreviation in the list of lost ships mentioned above was not only steamer, but steamer/sailing ship. The famous sailing training ship was towed from Novorossisk to Mariupol and lost there in autumn 1941 [the bark was captured and scuttled by Germans across the port entrance there]. But old bark sank "not correct" and small pass to the port still remained - that pass was used by Soviet armored motor boats during the liberation of Mariupol.
http://www.randewy.ru/mod/tovr.gif [photo of bark "Tovarishch"]
http://windgammers.narod.ru/Korabli/Tovaris-1-05.JPG [Admiralty anchor of "Tovarishch" as the memory of sailing ship]
kgvm wrote:
And there was a second sail-training ship in the Black Sea, the "Vega", built in 1901 in Estonia as "Taara". I only know she is said to have been a war loss, too. Do you have additional informations about her?
As for training barquentine "Vega" [built in Livonia in 1901 as three-masted "Taara" for transportation of coal from Russia to South America, used as training ship of Rostov polytechnic on Black and Azov Seas in 1930s-1941] - the captain Bobyr mentioned above wrote a very detailed info about its career and loss [Bobyr served on "Vega" and was its captain for some period of time in 1941]. "Vega" was lost 02.-03.08.1942 during its stay near Gelendzhik because of attack of German bomber [bomb exploded closely to the ship and skin in nose part was damaged, "Vega" sank]. The wrecks was scuttled by Gelendzhik port service and after WWII they were concreted when new pier was built there.
http://life-and-sea.mavrin.net/chapter06.html
http://life-and-sea.mavrin.net/chapter07.html

Regards, BP
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 03 Sep 2007 19:13, edited 1 time in total.

kgvm
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Post by kgvm » 03 Sep 2007 18:42

No need to answer at once, yesterday is enough :D
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Klaus Günther

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 03 Sep 2007 19:15

Already replied, see the letter above :wink:

Regards, BP

kgvm
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Post by kgvm » 03 Sep 2007 20:59

Thanks, BP, somehow your post of 16.56 was not displayed yet as I wrote .(
The link to Freunde der Tovarishch i knew already, that's where I got my information of "Vega".
http://www.randewy.ru/mod/tovr.gif doesn't show the old "Tovarishch", but the former German "Gorch Fock" (three masted bark, see Radar-dome)
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Klaus Günther

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 03 Sep 2007 22:09

Hi, Klaus!
kgvm wrote:
http://www.randewy.ru/mod/tovr.gif doesn't show the old "Tovarishch", but the former German "Gorch Fock" (three masted bark, see Radar-dome)
Yes, sorry :oops: . Of course, I knew about the 2nd bark named "Tovarishch" [ex-German "Gorch Fock"], but I had no even 1 min free to look on the photo more in detail that time and I only believed to incorrect inscription ["Tovarishch-I"].....
Here is the "correct photo" of work-training bark "Tovarishch" - http://www.odin.tc/books/steam/img/84.jpg

I also think that "Tovarishch" didn't have any steam engine but was only sailing ship with 30 sails [3005 sq.m]. Also the Russian abbreviation for it in the list of lost ships isn't ï/õ (steamer) but ï/ñ (sailing ship) - I just didn't recognize this at first.

Additional detail about the fate of "Tovarishch" - it was captured by Germans in Mariupol in October 1941 but scuttled there in autumn 1942 across the fairway of the port. The anchor from "Tovarishch" [see the photo above] is a memorial near Mariupol port.

Regards, BP

P.S. As for sailing training ships of USSR before WWII - bark "Tovarishch" [full displacement 4750 t] was the main, but there were also several - barquentine "Vega" [1100 t, I found her photo in one of my old naval journals just now] we've already discussed and barquentine "Ippolit" [330 tons, built in Russia in 1892, was used as training ship till 1928 and scrapped in 1932]. There were also several small sailing training schooners.

P.S.2. Barquentine "Vega" should look like this - http://www.rusf.ru/vk/book/fregat_zvenj ... reg099.gif
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 03 Sep 2007 22:49, edited 1 time in total.

kgvm
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Post by kgvm » 03 Sep 2007 22:35

BP,
of course you are right, "Tovarishch" was a plain sailing vessel. My mistake :(
Regrads
Klaus Günther

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 03 Sep 2007 23:15

And some additional details you know most probably - the sailing equipment of "Tovarishch" was remade by Britons from clipper to bark in 1908-09. Bark was purchased by Russian government during WWI (in 1916) as towed lighter for transportation equipment and coal for Murmansk railway [which was under construction that time]. British interventionists captured the bark during Russian Civil war, but it was returnd back in 1921. Sailing ship was used as transport till 1924 when it was reequipped into work-training bark [Soviet crew represented international team from Russians, Estonians, Latvians and Finns who knew sailing equipment; ship could be used for training of 120 cadets]. The first run under Red flag was made to Tallinn in autumn 1921 as transport [delivered rails from Petrograd to Tallinn and flour from Tallinn to Petrograd, also bark participated in secret operation during that run - six Estonian communists escaped from prison in Tallinn and with the help of fishmen they were transported on board of the bark and reached Red Russia that way].

Regards, BP

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Post by kgvm » 05 Sep 2007 21:01


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DenesBernad
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List of Soviet military + civilian ships sunken Odessa, 1941

Post by DenesBernad » 11 Sep 2007 15:00

Hello all Soviet ship experts :)

I am looking of a list of Soviet military and civilian ships sunken or damaged by Axis aviation only around Odessa, during 1 Aug.-16 Oct. 1941.
I need this information for a book about to be finished.

Thank you, in advance.

Dénes

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 12 Sep 2007 22:37

Guys, I will return back to AHF around 22-25.09. Sorry, I have bad Internet connection at the moment, so shortly.

Thank you very much for the interesting links about ex-Dutch ships, Klaus!

As for the question of Denes - about warships I will try to answer you in the end of September by PM [I have info about WWII losses of Soviet warships at home and this thread is only about Soviet civil merchant ships :wink: ]. About loss of civil ships in the area around Odessa between 01.08.-16.10.1941 because of air attacks :
1. Cargo-passenger steamer "Novorossiysk" [1351 brt, built in 1896 in Low Walker for Russia, captain A. Botto] - lost 12.08.1941 in Odessa gulf [46.35'N, 31.00'E], was attacked by enemy aviation during run from Kherson to Odessa and heavily damaged because of direct bomb hits, ran aground.
2. Cargo steamer "Bryansk" [2823 brt, ex-British built in 1898 in Pallion, captain K. Goronenko] - lost 21.08.1941 in the open sea not far from Odessa [46.32'N, 30.52'E] during run from Odessa to Sevastopol in ballast; was attacked by enemy aviation.
3. Hospital ship "Moldaviya" [1190 brt, ex-cargo-passenger diesel ship, built in 1928 in Hamburg] - lost 14.09.1941 near Tendra [46.20'N, 31.32'E], was heavily damaged during enemy air raid, ran aground and burnt. Cargos and passengers were rescued. Raised in 1946 and scrapped next year.
4. Tug "Taifun" [captain I. Omelianov] - lost 22.09.1941 near Tendra [46.20'N, 31.33'E] because of direct bomb hit, 2 men were lost.
5. Cargo steamer "Bolshevik" [1412 brt, ex-German built in 1899 by Koch, captain E. Freiman] - lost 16.10.1941 in Karkinit gulf [45.44'N, 32.10'E]. The ship performed run from Odessa in ballast [that was convoy which evacuated the last men/cargos of Odessa garrison, empty "Bolshevik" was the last ship in convoy]. The ship was attacked by enemy aviation many times during the day, was hit by 1 torpedo during the last attack [3 torpedos were dropped against "Bolshevik"]. 16 men were lost [including captain Freiman], 31 crewmembers and 5 passengers used life-boat and were rescued by two Soviet motor torpedo boats in 1.5 h.

Regards, BP
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 13 Sep 2007 08:25, edited 2 times in total.

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DenesBernad
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Ships sunken in and nearby Odessa by aviation in 1941

Post by DenesBernad » 13 Sep 2007 06:27

Excellent information, BP! Exactly what I was hoping for (it's even too detailed). :D

As for the other ships sunken in and nearby Odessa by aviation in Aug.-Oct. 1941, unfortunately I will have to close the book manuscript this coming Sunday. If you cannot find your files by then, maybe I will have a chance to insert minor information after the book layout will be done by the Publisher...

Thanks, again, for your kindness.

Dénes

P.S. Would you happen to know the hours when these ships were sunk? I will try to match the event with the anti-shipping activity of German and Rumanian aviation.

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 13 Sep 2007 08:19

Hi, Denes!

I have additional info about loss of "Bolshevik" 16.10.1941 [several tens miles from Odessa]. The ship performed convoy run from Odessa [evacuation of garrison], but as I've already wrote it was in ballast [there were only 20 soldiers on board]. During ~7 hours the convoy [and especially "Bolshevik" as the last ship with the low speed] was attacked many times by enemy aviation [~50 bombers and 6 torpedo-bombers]. The last attack was performed at 18.00 - three torpedo bombers He-111, 4 bombers and 4 fighters attacked "Bolshevik" [2 fighters from those 4 attacked motor torpedo boats which tried to guard the transport]. Aircraft attacked the old steamer by gun/MG fire during 7-10 min, then 3 torpedos were dropped [1 or 2 torpedos hit the ship according to different sources, probably, 2 hits is more correct] - right board in the stern part was damaged [stern hold and steam engine were destroyed], aircraft dropped bombs which exploded very close to the sinking ship, also shells of aircraft guns damaged forepeak and life-boats. "Bolshevik" listed to starboard and foundered by the stern around 19.00, 16 men were lost. Now the wrecks of "Bolshevik" are the popular diving place [as well as wrecks of "Bryansk" mentioned above].

Regards, BP
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 13 Sep 2007 16:39, edited 2 times in total.

kgvm
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Post by kgvm » 13 Sep 2007 09:56

Some new links:
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/d ... _MURLA.jpg (Minsk of 1918)
http://www.faktaomfartyg.se/helen_heidmann_1904.htm (Estonian Argos of 1904, with picture)
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery// ... hoto=80158 (Baltika ex Viacheslav Molotov)

And a question:
"Tashkent" of 1906 is given by miramarships as war loss in the Black Sea, but listed in Lloyd's until 1960 (okay, that means nothing :) ). Do you have any informations about her fate?

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