Transport ships of USSR in 1941-1945 - any info!!

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kgvm
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#766

Post by kgvm » 07 Nov 2007, 10:35

BP, thanks for the informations about the four surveying ships.
Regards
Klaus Günther

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BIGpanzer
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#767

Post by BIGpanzer » 10 Nov 2007, 00:04

Yes, famous arctic ice-breaker "Krasin" (now the branch of the museum of World ocean in St.Petersburg), completelly restored:
http://image.otdihinfo.ru:8125/WWW/images/2734.jpg

Old photos of "Krasin":
http://img1.liveinternet.ru/images/atta ... _18667.jpg
http://www.airforce.ru/history/aer_arct ... tic_04.jpg
http://www.odin.tc/books/steam/img/132.jpg
http://www.whoi.edu/beaufortgyre/histor ... krasin.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/r ... foto_1.jpg (the year was 1928, during rescue operation of the Italian expedition of Nobile)

http://rosimperfleet.narod.ru/led_fslo/svjya.jpg (photo of WWI period as armed icebreaker "Svyatogor" with armament 2x102mm + 2x76mm, Arctic Ocean flotilla)
http://www.krassin.ru/imgb/2827.jpg (armed icebreaker "Krasin" during WWII polar convoys)

Regards, BP
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 11 Nov 2007, 20:34, edited 3 times in total.


kgvm
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#768

Post by kgvm » 10 Nov 2007, 17:09

Thanks, BP, but did they carry hammer and circle in WW II?

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BIGpanzer
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#769

Post by BIGpanzer » 10 Nov 2007, 17:24

Hi, Klaus!
kgvm wrote:
Thanks, BP, but did they carry hammer and circle in WW II?
You mean hammer and sickle, of course :) I don't understand the question - where should the ice-breaker carry them, on national flag (yes, "Krasin" didn't belong to the Navy and carried civil State flag) or on smoke funnels (there were red stars on them, see the photo)?

I guess you mean the Order of the Red Banner of Labour (indeed visible in the front of deck-house of "Krasin"), the ice-breaker was the first Soviet ship of merchant fleet awarded with the new order (also its captain Karl Eggi and some crewmembers were awarded). Awarding took place 08.10.1928 after successful rescuing the Italian Polar dirigible expedition of general U. Nobile close to the North Pole in 1928; on its return way "Krasin" rescued in addition German passenger ship "Monte Cervantes" with 1835 passengers on board, after the liner hit an iceberg off Spitzbergen 24.07.1928 and its hull was severely damaged.

http://www.krassin.ru/imgb2/2803.jpg (divers from "Krasin" repaired the hull of "Monte Cervantes")
http://www.krassin.ru/imgb/2802.jpg (people in Leningrad met "Krasin" returned back after rescue operation, 1928; note aircraft "Junkers" G-24/JuG-1 on board)


http://foto.qrz.ru/albums/userpics/1041 ... _rubka.jpg
http://www.krassin.ru/imgb/2803.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_t ... _of_Labour

"Krasin" was re-engined/rebuilt at Wismar in 1953-1960, and reequipped significantly in USSR in 1972 also. "Krasin" became the research ship of the Ministry of Geology (participated in many polar exploration expeditions), so I am not 100% sure that the Order was on the old deck-house (probably, it appeared on the new one only). I don't have the good photos of "Krasin" of 1930s-1940s to be sure about the Order.

http://www.kvs.spb.ru/images/docs/783.jpg (a very good photo but as the year is 1927 - no Order yet, of course)
http://www.krassin.ru/imgb/2810.jpg ("Krasin" in 1932)

Regards, BP

P.S.1. "Krasin" performed many unique research runs in Arctic in 1930s (reached the eastern part of Pechora Sea for the first time, investigated waters near Novaya Zemlya, in Chukot Sea). As for our interest - "Krasin" guided two destroyers ("Voikov" and "Stalin") from Kronshtadt to Far-East in 1935, also submarine Shch-423 from Murmansk to Far-East in 1940.

P.S.2. As for WWII - icebreaker "Krasin" (still the most powerful world's icebreaker that time, captain M. Markov) participated very actively in Arctic convoy operations (White Sea, Kara Sea, Laptev Sea) in 1942-1943, then the ship went to Vladivostok for repair. In 1942 "Krasin" saved the convoy from "Admiral Scheer" (guided the ship to the north to strong ice).
When the war began the ship continued its work along Northen Sea Route, but soon its captain received the order to go to USA so "Krasin" performed run from the eastern part of Northern Sea Route to US Seattle in October 1941, and it was damaged during the extremelly strong storm in Pacific (repaired in Seattle). The reason of sending "Krasin" to USA was that US government asked Soviets to help them with the powerful icebreaker for planned landing operation in Greenland (which didn't take place).
Then "Krasin" went to Baltimore for reequipment and reached Panama Canal without significant problems despite of extremelly strong storm again (it should be noted that it is hard to overcome high waves for large icebreakers with their low level of metacentric stability). "Krasin" came to Baltimore 10.01.1942, where some new equipment was installed as well as antimine winding and armament (ten 12.7mm MGs and 76mm gun). Then the ship performed run to Norfolk, Halifax and Glasgow where additional armament was installed (three old 76mm guns and seven 20mm AA Oerlikon guns). "Krasin" returned to Murmansk in convoy PQ-15 05.05.1942 (25 transports and 20 escorting warships), during that run convoy was attacked by German aircraft many times and civil sailors of "Krasin" could shot down two of them using Oerlikons (IIRC Luftwaffe lost 5 bombers during attacks against PQ-15, 3 transports of convoy were lost).
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 13 Nov 2007, 22:32, edited 2 times in total.

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#770

Post by BIGpanzer » 10 Nov 2007, 21:02

Marty wrote:
Very sad story about Odessa. It was scrapped a couple of years ago. The last surviving Liberty Ship build by Kaiser.
Do you know the very sad story about "Krasin" also which was very close to be scrapped or to be sold by businessmen in 1990s (that happened with almost all famous ships in USSR/Russia, including its predecessor icebreaker "Ermak")? And his 78-years old captain was very heavily beaten (fortunately, survived) near his house because he tried to preserve the legendary icebreaker (and did this finally with the help of officers of Baltic Sea Navy, historians and other enthusiasts), but a lot of problems still exist (for example, very high daily price for ship stay at the berth).


"Krasin" inside - modern photos. The ship is in excellent condition and has all necessary documents to perform sea runs.
http://www.enlight.ru/camera/228/index.html
http://www.k2000.ru/forum/index.php?sho ... 16148&st=0&
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 11 Nov 2007, 22:51, edited 1 time in total.

kgvm
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#771

Post by kgvm » 10 Nov 2007, 21:34

Sorry, BP, two mistakes in one short post :(
I meant hammer and sickle, of course.
I mistook the stars at the funnels for hammer and sickle, should have used the zoom before writing.
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Klaus Günther

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#772

Post by BIGpanzer » 10 Nov 2007, 21:40

Ok, Klaus :wink:
Here is one more photo of "Krasin" (1928, before rescue operation of Italians). Note the funnels.
http://amyat.narod.ru/memo/mindlin_el/08.jpg


Regards, BP

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#773

Post by BIGpanzer » 11 Nov 2007, 21:19

http://www.uscg.mil/history/webcutters/ ... _1917.html (icebreaker "Krasin" in Bremerton, Washington, autumn 1941)
I also see that stars were removed from funnels during WWII.

Regards, BP

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#774

Post by BIGpanzer » 12 Nov 2007, 22:53

We've already discussed here the powerful icebreakers of "I. Stalin"-type (according to Soviet classification - linear icebreakers), which were built in 1938-1941 ("I. Stalin"/later "Sibir" and "V. Molotov"/later "Admiral Makarov" were built by Baltic shipyard No. 189 named for Ordzhonikidze; "L. Kaganovich"/later "Admiral Lazarev" and "A. Mikoyan" were built by Nikolaev shipyard No. 198 named for A. Marti).

All four Soviet-built linear icebreakers survived the war (despite their use as auxiliary cruisers on Black Sea and Baltic Sea ("A. Mikoyan" and "V. Molotov"), famous 9 months run of unarmed "A. Mikoyan" from Black Sea to Pacific through Mediterranean and Atlantic during which it was attacked by Italian MTBs and aircraft, active participation in polar convoys under strong attacks of enemy aviation...). They were scrapped in 1966-1973.

It should be noted that the design of those first Soviet-built heavy icebreakers was based on the very successful project of old arctic icebreaker "Krasin" (still most world's powerful that time). They were also steam icebreakers (equipped with the most powerful Soviet overheated steam engines, 3x3350 hp; "Krasin" had less effective steam engines), larger than "Krasin" (106.6 x 28.1 x 9.15 m instead of 98.5 x 21.6 x 9.1 m) and icebreakers of "I. Stalin"-type had much better equipped cabins (126) and holds (including refrigerated for one year food supplies), also 3 aircraft on board.

I have one question - AFAIK the Central administration of Northern Sea Route (established 17.12.1932) was responsible for development of the project of new arctic icebreaker. It was decided (together with People's Commissariat of Heavy Industry) to develop and built two types of heavy (linear) icebreakers - steam of improved "Krasin"-type (because such icebreakers could be developed and built faster, those became four ships of "I. Stalin"-type) and diesel-electric (with 12000-14000 hp engines and more endurance in comparison with steam icebreakers).
Two powerful diesel-electric icebreakers were laid down by Admiralty shipyard in Leningrad in 1935 indeed - "Kirov" and "Kuibyshev" but they were not finished because of starting of a large programme of warship shipbuilding. Does anybody know something more about those diesel-electric icebreakers, or is it possible to find their blue-prints?

Regards, BP
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 18 Nov 2007, 17:31, edited 1 time in total.

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#775

Post by mjbollinger » 13 Nov 2007, 00:50

BP,

Let me look. I don't recall coming across any details or schematics for these ships.

By the way, there was a third ship planned in this class, though construction was never started. It was to be named Kazak Khabarov.

MB

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#776

Post by BIGpanzer » 13 Nov 2007, 13:10

Thanks, Marty, it will be nice to find something about those Soviet unfinished diesel-electric heavy icebreakers. Do you know what was percent of readiness of those ships when it was decided not to finish them because of large warship shipbuilding programme?
As for "Kazak Khabarov" - I didn't know about that, I only know the Soviet steam small icebreaker under the same name (1050 tons, 48.7 m, 1200 hp) which was built in China (Shanghai) in 1916 and operated in Pacific in 1920s-1950s.

Regards, BP

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#777

Post by BIGpanzer » 13 Nov 2007, 21:37

Here are several new photos of Soviet-built icebreakers of "I. Stalin"-type I could find.

http://keu-ocr.narod.ru/Komet/pictures/09.jpg ("I. Stalin")
http://keu-ocr.narod.ru/Komet/pictures/10.jpg ("L. Kaganovich")
Both photos are from the online article http://keu-ocr.narod.ru/Komet/ about German auxiliary cruiser (raider) "Komet" which was guided by Soviet arctic icebreakers along the Northern Sea Route to Pacific in summer 1940.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... stalin.PNG (photo of "I. Stalin" taken from the "Komet")

http://www.rodoslov.ru/4images/data/media/4/41.jpg ("Sibir"/ex-"I. Stalin" after modernization in 1958)

http://www.edu.severodvinsk.ru/after_sc ... stalin.jpg (armed icebreaker "I. Stalin" during convoy run PQ-6, December 1941)
Note the armament of icebreaker (belonged to Administration of White Sea ice operations established 10.1941) - it was armed in the beginning of the war by plant No. 402 in Molotovsk with 37-100mm AA guns and 12.7mm MGs, also degaussing generators and hydroacoustic equipment were innstalled. German aviation tried to sink icebreakers as the most important targets during arctic convoys but all Soviet heavy icebreakers survived the war, performing active guiding of convoys in ice fields. The following examples could be mentioned - 01.1942 "I. Stalin" which waited convoy in the White Sea was attacked by German bomber and bombs damaged steam boilers (icebreaker was repaired in one month), 28.02.1943 "L. Kaganovich" and 7 transports of convoy JW52 were attacked by 6 bombers but ships could repulse all attacks by AA fire.

http://files.balancer.ru/cache/forums/a ... edokol.jpg ("L. Kaganovich")
http://files.balancer.ru/cache/forums/a ... edokol.jpg ("A. Mikoyan")
http://www.ivki.ru/kapustin/icebreaker/ ... s/m003.jpg ("A. Mikoyan" during convoy run)

But the most part of convoy work in Arctic near the seashore was done by linear icebreaker "Lenin" (because it was smaller with low draft and could be used along North Dvina river and in ports, built in 1917 by Armstrong Whitworth) - it passed 22000 miles in ice during the war and guided 778 ships including 343 allied -
http://www.photoshare.ru/data/1/1567/1/2pstkj-xik.jpg
http://www.odin.tc/books/steam/img/127.jpg

Regards, BP

P.S. About German raider "Komet" - http://www.bismarck-class.dk/hilfskreuzer/komet.html
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 14 Nov 2007, 19:13, edited 2 times in total.

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#778

Post by BIGpanzer » 13 Nov 2007, 23:41

I found the exact armament of icebreaker "I. Stalin" during arctic convoys - the ship was armed with 3x130mm + 4x76mm (AA of Lender-type) + 2x12.7mm.

The strongest armament had "A. Mikoyan" as auxiliary cruiser of Black Sea Navy in autumn 1941 - 5x130mm + 4x76mm + 6x45mm + 4x12.7mm. Icebreaker participated very active in combats at Odessa and Sevastopol (supported army and landing units, performed long-range fire against enemy coastal batteries and AA defense - shot down 2 aircraft using 130mm guns) till the ship was unarmed and sent to the Pacific 25.11.1941 (famous 9 months run, 25000 miles). As icebreaker of Northern Sea Route since August 1942 "A. Mikoyan" was armed again - 4x76mm + 10x20mm + 4x12.7mm + 4x7.62mm.

Regards, BP

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#779

Post by BIGpanzer » 14 Nov 2007, 20:41

Some additional info about main Soviet icebreakers in Arctic during WWII which participated in guiding of convoys - in 1942 Northern Sea Route used the following icebreakers: linear icebreaker "L. Kaganovich" and linear icebreaker "A. Mikoyan" (just arrived from the Black Sea, belonged to special secret naval unit EON-18 involved in guiding of warships) in the Far Eastern part of the Route, smaller icebreaker "Dobrynya Nikitich" was used mainly in Far Eastern ports and didn't perform Arctic runs. In the Western part of the Route (Arkhangelsk) there were two linear icebreakers also - "I. Stalin" and famous "Krasin" (the last one just arrived from USA after repair), smaller icebreaker "Lenin" performed guiding near ports but not in strong Arctic ice mainly. Icecutter "Litke" was used as patrol ship SK-18 (flagship of North detachment), icebreaking ships "G. Sedov", "A. Sibiryakov" and "Dezhnev" (SKR-19) could be used as auxiliary icebreakers only. Linear icebreakers "Ermak" and "V. Molotov" as well as several icebreaking ships were located in besieged Leningrad and couldn't be used as Arctic icebreakers because of this. So there were not many powerful icebreakers belonged to the Northern Sea Route that time, and linear icebreakers of "I. Stalin"-type just built before the war were of very importance there.

Regards, BP

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#780

Post by kgvm » 15 Nov 2007, 11:27

A new link:
http://riversea.tugtalk.co.uk/memories/ ... FF1943.jpg
The first "Valerii Chkalov", which broke in two parts, after repair under the American flag. Note the writing of the name with two F!

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