How many Soviet citizens were killed in World War Two?

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Post by Art » 25 Jan 2008 18:12

Peter H wrote:A discussion here as well:
viewtopic.php?t=96343
From nickterry:

That is a useful link.
A short comment on what Nick wrote - the number of deaths among deportees is known with a good precision. Roughly 270 000 men died among ethnic deportees till 1st October 1948. That doesn't include former kulaks deportated in 1930s (yet it should be mentioned that for them the level of mortality was relatively moderate) ans several other categories and also seems to omit losses en route. However this figure is not a pure number of excess deaths since it includes normal mortaliry as well. So the whole number couldn't be treated as one of components of the net 27 millions demographical loss.

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Post by Art » 27 Jan 2008 18:21

Some comment on military losses which may be not directly related to the topic but I hope will be useful to expand the discussion. The principal source for military losses is the research made by Krivosheev's group. It uses two different methods:
1. The first one is based on reports on losses recieved from units. By the end of the war the following losses were reported:
KIA and died of wounds during evacuation - 5 226,8 thousands
Died of wounds - 1 102,8
Non-battle deaths (deseases, accidents, executions, suicides) - 555,5
MIA 3 396,4 thousands
Unregistred losses (the personnel of units whcih were completely destroyed) - 1 162,6 thousands
Total 11 441,1 thousands
From this number the people registered as missing but returned under military control are exluded - total 2 775,7 thousands of them 939,7 thousands men reconscripted on the occupied territories till the end of the war and 1 836,0 POWs repatriated after.
So the resulting "pure" loss (killed died and not returned from captivity) is 8 668,4 thousands. This figure pertains to the losses of the Army, Navy and NKVD forces (the last acount for 159,1 thousands)

2. The second method is based on calculating the losses based on balance figures. In short it looks as followes:
The Soviet Armed Forces (Army and Navy) had 4 826,9 thousands men when the war started
Apart from this 74,9 thousands men of military pesonnel were in the civilian organizations
During the war 29 574,9 thousands were mobilized excluding the cases of repeated mobilization (particulary 939,7 thousands mentioned earlier) .
That gives a total resource of 34 476,7 men which could be employed in the Armed forces.
By the end of the war (1st July 1945) the number of military personnel amounted to 12 839,8 thousands, of them 11 390,6 in ranks, 1046,0 in hospitals, 403,2 in civilian organizations.
The difference between the two numbers is 21 636,9 thousands, that is the total loss. Of this 9 692,8 thousands left the Armed Forces without being killed, dead or missing. These were:
3798,2 retired due to wounds or deseases
3614,6 transferred to undustry for labor employment or to paramilitary organizations
1174,6 transferred to NKVD troops or military formations of other organizations
250,4 transferred to foreign Armies (Polish, Czechoslovakian, Romanian)
206,0 - miscellaneous losses
212,4 deserters
436,6 sentenced and sent to penitentiary system
The remaining loss of 11 944,1 must be attributed to the losses as dead and missing

One can see that there is a 500-thosands difference between the "reports' and "balance" figures. This difference is interpreted by Krivosheev as draftees who didn't arrived to military units, yet it can be explained as an inaccuracy of either methodic. It should be noted the round character of this figure is purely accidental. If we add them to the 8 668,4 pure loss figure we'll recieve roughly 9 170 thousands for irrevocable losses.

Now a question: what were mistakes made by Krivosheev when comparing balance loss with reported loss?

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Post by thorwald77 » 27 Jan 2008 19:09

Art wrote:I found some statistics on post-war exchange of population between USSR and Poland in the article of Pavel Polyan (in Russian):
http://www.etnosfera.ru/ecentr.php?onew ... =937&id=10
518 thousands people moved from Poland (in post-war borders) to the territory of USSR, of them 482 109 to Ukraine, 35 961 to Belorussia, and 14 thousands to Lithuania.
At the same time 1 090 thousands migrated to Poland from Soviet territory, of them 789 982 from Ukraine, 231 152 from Belorussia, 69 774 from Lithuania.
The sources is the State Archive of Russian Federation.
As the article says there are alternative data by Maksudov and Kabuzan (without certain source specified unfortunately):
1 526 thousands migrated to Poland in 1945-46, of them 810,5 thousands from Ukraine, 274,2 thousands from Belorussia and 178 thousands from Lithuania.
So conclusion from both sources is that migrational movement of population from the USSR to Poland clearly outweighted the reverse process.



Included in the total of 1,526,000 are 263,000 Polish citizens in Russia who were displaced during the war years. That is your difference.

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Post by Art » 27 Jan 2008 20:06

Polyan calls them "Poles from other western regions of the USSR" rather than deportes, I missed them in my post. And they don't account for all the difference between 1090 and 1526 thousands.

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Post by thorwald77 » 27 Jan 2008 20:34

SCHECHTMAN, Joseph B. , Postwar Population Transfers in Europe 1945-1955 pages 170-77 provides the following data 1,495,000 transfers from the USSR to Poland in the period from 1944-47. In addition there were 190,000 Poles from the eastern territories displaced in Germany who returned to Poland after the war, 70,000 Poles from the Polish Forces on the Eastern Front and 200-240,000 Poles that fled the fighting in the Ukraine in 19443-44. In total 1,950,000 to 2,000,000 Poles from the former Polish eastern provinces became refugees in post war Poland. The Polish census of 1950 confirmed these figures. From 1955-59 an additional 250,000 Poles and Jews from the former Polish eastern provinces were repatriated from the USSR. Contemporary Polish sources put the number transferred at 1,529,000 rather than 1,495,000, the difference being unregistered transfers.
Last edited by thorwald77 on 27 Jan 2008 20:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by thorwald77 » 27 Jan 2008 20:41

1 526 thousands migrated to Poland in 1945-46, of them 810,5 thousands from Ukraine, 274,2 thousands from Belorussia and 178 thousands from Lithuania.
Included in the total of 1,526,000 are 263,000 Polish citizens in Russia who were displaced during the war years. That is your difference.

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Post by thorwald77 » 27 Jan 2008 20:50

Note well that the Soviet figure for the population of the annexed territories of 20.1 million has been adjusted for these population transfers.

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Post by thorwald77 » 27 Jan 2008 21:40

Andreev, EM, et al, Naselenie Sovetskogo Soiuza, 1922-1991. Moscow, Nauka, 1993. ISBN 5-02-013479-1 on page 118 has a figure of 622,000 net migration out of the USSR in 1946. Does anyone have the details that make up this statistic? Andreev does not provide a breakdown.

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Post by Art » 28 Jan 2008 12:20

thorwald77 wrote:]Included in the total of 1,526,000 are 263,000 Polish citizens in Russia who were displaced during the war years. That is your difference.

I'm sorry, I don't undertstand what you want to say. Please explain it in detail.

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Post by thorwald77 » 28 Jan 2008 12:41

I'm sorry, I don't undertstand what you want to say. Please explain it in detail

1 526 thousands migrated to Poland in 1945-46, of them 810,5 thousands from Ukraine, 274,2 thousands from Belorussia and 178 thousands from Lithuania, plus 263,000 fron the Russian SSR and other interior Republics

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Post by Art » 28 Jan 2008 13:54

Yes, I've allready said that I overlooked them when writing the first post, thank you for correction. Note that some difference between Polyan's and Maksudov's data still remain.

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Post by thorwald77 » 28 Jan 2008 14:01

.
Note that some difference between Polyan's and Maksudov's data still remain


Polyan is wrong, Contemporaary Russian sources have a figure of 1.526 million. Polish sources have either 1,529 million or 1.543 million. See my post above the actual transfer to Poland was about 2 million, not counting
an additional 200-300,000 who remained in western countries after the war.

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Post by thorwald77 » 29 Jan 2008 00:46

The Soviet repatriational administration had the following data on the number of USSR citizens which were displaced during the war and remained abroad.
Total 451 561 people were registered by 1st January 1952
Of them 144 934 Ukrainians
109 214 Latvians
63 401 Lithuanians
58 924 Estonians
31 704 Russians
9 856 Belorussians
and 33 528 others
(V.Zemskov "Repatriation of displaced Soviet citizens")


These figures do not include Poles and Jews, who were not considered Soviet citizens. The number of Poles and Jews from the former Polish territories who emmigrated was about 2.3 million.

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Post by thorwald77 » 29 Jan 2008 12:19

Andreev, EM, et al, ''Naselenie Sovetskogo Soiuza, 1922-1991''. Moscow, Nauka, 1993 has an population estimate of the annexed territories of 20.270 million

Here is my estimate of the breakdown of that number


Population millions
Poland- 13,000
Bialostock- (1392)
Lithuania 2,475
Latvia 2,000
Estonia 1,100
Romania 3,800
Trans Carpathia 700
Tuva 100
Subtotal 21,783

Transfers:
Emmigration Germans (392)
Anders Army (113)
Polish Transfer Out (1,526)
Transfer to USSR from Poland 518
Subtotal (1,513)

Net Gain USSR 20,270

Also Andreev has an estimate of Post war net transfers out of 622,000

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Post by thorwald77 » 29 Jan 2008 12:47

The standard Soviet era statistic for the net population gain in the annexed territories is 20.1 million, Andreev has a net gain of 20.270 million, a difference of 170,000. The standard Soviet era statistic for net post war emigration is 452,000, Andreev’s figure is 622,00, a difference of 170,000.
Can anyone explain this 170,000 difference?

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