Russian submarines

Discussions on all aspects of the USSR, from the Russian Civil War till the end of the Great Patriotic War and the war against Japan. Hosted by Art.
Mark V
Financial supporter
Posts: 3925
Joined: 22 May 2002 09:41
Location: Suomi Finland

Post by Mark V » 18 Nov 2002 20:33

BTW ISU-152.

This forum is a forum for free thinking people who have free access to reliable information about events during WW2.

You make yourself a joke of a forum if you continue to make claims like Soviets damaged Tirpitz or passangers of Goya and Wilhelm Gustloff were "future submarine crews". I would advice you to take serious lessons of history before posting anything in this forum.

User avatar
LeoAU
Member
Posts: 336
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 23:04
Location: Down Under, Melbourne

Post by LeoAU » 19 Nov 2002 07:38

Mark V wrote:BTW ISU-152.

This forum is a forum for free thinking people who have free access to reliable information about events during WW2.
This 'free thinking' comes down to dismissing everything Soviets did. All they were capable of - raping, looting. Ah, and sinking ships with women and children.

You make yourself a joke of a forum if you continue to make claims like Soviets damaged Tirpitz or passangers of Goya and Wilhelm Gustloff were "future submarine crews". I would advice you to take serious lessons of history before posting anything in this forum.

Are you saying that Gustloff did not carry any soldiers or seamen? If you are, only if you are, then you are making a joke of yourself.
If you are not, then you would probably know that the list of passengers included 918 Naval officers and men, 173 crew, 373 members of the Woman's Naval Auxiliary units, 162 wounded, and 4,424 refugees, for an official total of 6,050 people. Only God knows how accurate those lists in that mess were.
http://www.feldgrau.com/wilhelmgustloff.html
However, I've seen figures of up to 7 or even 10 thousand passengers on that unfortunate ship. And guess what, some of them were those ex brave nazi superhumans that were running from Soiet Army. How many of those 'refugees' would be put back to service, and how many would join folksturm we don't know.
So, I conclude that ISU-152 was technically correct.

ISU-152
Member
Posts: 711
Joined: 14 Nov 2002 14:02
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Post by ISU-152 » 19 Nov 2002 09:07

Mark V wrote:BTW ISU-152.

This forum is a forum for free thinking people who have free access to reliable information about events during WW2.

You make yourself a joke of a forum if you continue to make claims like Soviets damaged Tirpitz or passangers of Goya and Wilhelm Gustloff were "future submarine crews". I would advice you to take serious lessons of history before posting anything in this forum.


This was a completely unnecessary post you know that Mark V. What are you trying to prove here? Your smartness and righteousness?
I have my sources and they are as reliable as one can get.
I have Marinesco diary where it is said that most people aboard Wilhelm Gustlow were nazi elite fleeing Germany in fear of prosecution and submarine crews fresh from training. Now I do believe a person who has seen the battle himself and was the author of that kill more than any of your pity sources that claim "women, children and such" were aboard the transport.


Mark V wrote:I would advice you to take serious lessons of history before posting anything in this forum.

You are not my history teacher first of all. And I am old enough to dismiss any propaganda from any sources available. The germans executed the farther of Captain Lunin in Rostov because they knew that his son torpedoed battleship Tirpits. I will get you the sources if you wish so until then don't you dare to speak to me in that manner you kiddo. :P

User avatar
Oleg Grigoryev
Member
Posts: 5051
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 20:06
Location: Russia

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 19 Nov 2002 09:09

well while I am not in complete agreement with "zveroboy" here he is right in regrds to Lunin's old man the guy was 74 years old and the hanged him.

ISU-152
Member
Posts: 711
Joined: 14 Nov 2002 14:02
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Post by ISU-152 » 19 Nov 2002 09:15

Mark V wrote:

Well, Soviets didn't have major fleet either...



Really? The soviets launched 14o plus landing invasions during WWII (that is amphibious assaults), most of them succeeding, the Germans none.
Do the names Pillau, Koenigsberg and such tell you something or not? The Baltic Fleet was instrumental at keeping Germans away from St. Petersburg with its battleship "Marat" providing the most firepower.


Mark V wrote:
And Marinesco sank the biggest transport Germany had killing over 7000 people most of them crews for future german submarines. He was declared by Hitler as No 2 enemy after Stalin. That speaks about something.


I don't even bother to answer this.


And you shouldn't b/c you have no sufficient sources to prove your statement.

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11486
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Post by Juha Tompuri » 19 Nov 2002 12:15

ISU-152,

How did Marinesco know about the "cargo" of W.G.? Counting through periscope? 8O

Juha

User avatar
Harri
Member
Posts: 4214
Joined: 24 Jun 2002 11:46
Location: Suomi - Finland

Post by Harri » 19 Nov 2002 12:45

Once again the great Soviet success was sunk down to the bottom of the deep sea... :roll:
Killjoys!

User avatar
Harri
Member
Posts: 4214
Joined: 24 Jun 2002 11:46
Location: Suomi - Finland

Post by Harri » 19 Nov 2002 12:59

Well, from the German side we know that Luftwaffe pilot "sunk" aircraft carrier Ark Royal which was re-sunk later by a German submarine. That is quite normal on both sides. Maybe Soviet submarine attacked against Tirpitz but either missed or torpedoes didn't work? If Germans didn't notice anything then this is quite clear. Most submarine attacks failed actually especially those against fast moving warships.

Question: how Germans knew that just that man was the father of the skipper of certain Soviet submarine which just attacked against Tirpitz? Sounds more like a fairy tale to me - or a coindidence.

ISU-152 wrote:I have my sources and they are as reliable as one can get.
I have Marinesco diary where it is said that most people aboard Wilhelm Gustlow were nazi elite fleeing Germany in fear of prosecution and submarine crews fresh from training. Now I do believe a person who has seen the battle himself and was the author of that kill more than any of your pity sources that claim "women, children and such" were aboard the transport.


I don't disbelieve your sources but the way they tell about the case sounds typical "Soviet liturgy". Marinesco is maybe not the right person to say what kind of people W.G. carried. That was war and in war such things happen occasionally. The case is serious only if Marinesco knew that ship was full of refugees and still torpedoed that ship. This smells like a child justifying one's bad doings. Anyway there was no "Nazi elite" left, they had fled a long time ago because it is well known that "rats leave the mess first". There were only ordinary people - refugees and soldiers.

User avatar
Juha Hujanen
Financial supporter
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Mar 2002 11:32
Location: Suur-Savo,Finland

Post by Juha Hujanen » 19 Nov 2002 16:44

Captain Lunin attack against Tirpiz is described in Albert Axell's book-Russian's Heroes 1941-45.However Western historians are higly sceptical that Lunin actually scored a hit on Tirpitz.Neither Tirpitz log know such attack.Lunin didn't have a visual contact on Tirpitz after he launched his torpedoes,he heard 2 explosions when his sub was dived.Propably torpedoes missed Tirpitz and exploted by self-destruction mechanism or exploted premature before reaching their target.

At 1700 the Russian submarine K.21 reported the Germans as steering 045° some 72 kilometer northwest of North Cape and claimed to have hit Tirpitz with two torpedoes. However no mention of a submarine attack is to be found in the battleship's war diary and she sustained no damage. A reconnaissance aircraft reported them an hour later and the British submarine P.54 likewise at 2029, having tried desperately for an hour to close to an attacking position. German naval command intercepted these reports and, fearful of an air attack from Victorious if the operations against the convoy continued after 0100 on 6 July 1942, at 2132 ordered Admiral Schniewind to discontinue the operation and return to Bogenfjord.

http://www.bismarck-class.dk/tirpitz/history/tiroperrosselsprung.html

Regards Juha

ISU-152
Member
Posts: 711
Joined: 14 Nov 2002 14:02
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Post by ISU-152 » 19 Nov 2002 17:00

2 Juha Tompuri
If you are interested I can translate the following into English but it will take some time. The sources in the bottom make it a quite reliable source of information.

http://www.deol.ru/manclub/war/morrek.htm

The title is "The highest scoring submarine commanders in WWII" The first 20 spots are occupied by Germans of course! But there are also figures on the score of transports sunk by Soviet submarines.

Just tell me if you are interested and I will translate it.

ISU-152
Member
Posts: 711
Joined: 14 Nov 2002 14:02
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Post by ISU-152 » 19 Nov 2002 17:08

Also I agree that I was wrong with battleship Tirpitz. The attack was unsuccessful but K-21 managed to spot Tirpitz and report his coordinates thus helping the allies to sink it.

Mark V
Financial supporter
Posts: 3925
Joined: 22 May 2002 09:41
Location: Suomi Finland

Post by Mark V » 19 Nov 2002 19:23

Well, this created some discussion indeed. Sorry, i was at work and couldn't participate sooner.

To ISU-152: Sorry if i sounded little harsh, but you are new here and i admit that i didn't have sufficient background information to attack against you like that. But those claims you made (Gustloff and Tirpitz) are all well known and notorious examples.

I have noticed that you now believe sources that Lunin didn't archieve hit to Tirpitz. Well, like i said before, ships log book is quite reliable source on the matter was the vessel torpedoed or not. I think that they would have noticed it. :D There was some good in this debate or what ?? Some information about actual events of WW2 was shared and accepted.

And sorry. That attack didn't contributed to the eventual destruction of Tirpitz either. Tirpitz was damaged by X-craft attack in september 1943, damaged again in FAA attacks in spring and summer 1944 and was eventually sunk by RAF Lancasters in late 1944. Tirpitz location was solved by allied aerial reconnaisance and Norwegian resistance and was well known to British. Lunins unsuccessfull attack in 1942 didn't in any way contributed to the eventual destruction of Tirpitz - more than 2 years after the attack.

Well, about Goya and Gustloff. You did say that most were future submarine crews. I agree that there isn't and couldn't be totally reliable count, but just look for example numbers LeoAU kindly posted before. Most were refugees, and with them women, children and elderly people. There were also common German landsers onboard, allied POWs and yes, also Kriegsmarine personnel. Hardly "boat full of nazi elite", do you agree ??

About reliability of submarine captains estimates:

I agree fully what Harri posted before:

>>>Marinesco is maybe not the right person to say what kind of people W.G. carried.

... and want to add: The submarine captain is commonly the person you don't ask what they have sunk, you rely on other sources. Marinesco was a real fakir if he could see through the periscope that they were nazi elite. Did he see the party badges through periscope ?? I haven't read the diary, but in your place would be very sceptical.

About Soviet Navy in general:

Well you pull out amphibious operations where there was successes indeed, but i was talking about normal naval actions. By the way, none have made any comment about why USSRs large and well equipped submarine fleet archieved nearly nothing against the most important naval target imaginable in European theater of war for any Allied power - The imports from Sweden.

And i would think that you agree that Soviet Union hadn't major navy. Nor did Germans. Both countries were on initial steps on their naval construction program and both would have needed at least 5 years before they could be called as serious naval powers. I am talking about real navies: like USA, GB and Japan.

But, Germans were still able to fight against Soviet Baltic Navy in WW2 same way as they fought against Russian Navy in WW1. Most resources were allocated to the west and only those forces which were needed to contain Soviet Navy were allocated to the east.

Mark V
Financial supporter
Posts: 3925
Joined: 22 May 2002 09:41
Location: Suomi Finland

Post by Mark V » 19 Nov 2002 19:38

LeoAU wrote:BTW ISU-152.
All they were capable of - raping, looting.


Well, well dear Leo.

We didn't talk anything about raping and looting.... Why do you pull out such issues ??

We were talking about did Soviet sub archieve a hit in German BB and what kind of personnel two German passanger liners carried when they were sunken.

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11486
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Post by Juha Tompuri » 19 Nov 2002 21:36

Mark V, well said.

ISU-152, I don`t rate the Marinescos (or Marinescu, as his fathers original name) achievements very high on a "military scale". Most of the people he killed with W.G. were civilians, and with Steuben, seriously wounded. However, he was an interesting person (the little I know of him), with his score of about 36700t of the total, about 144000t the soviet subs scored 41-45. According to the western sources. Also two other sub captains interest me: Ivan Travkin and Sergei Lisin. I think I wouldn`t be the only one that would like to read here more of them. But take your time.

Juha

ISU-152
Member
Posts: 711
Joined: 14 Nov 2002 14:02
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Post by ISU-152 » 20 Nov 2002 11:55

2 Juha Tompuri and Mark V

I agree with you that the soviet navy could have performed better having such resources but they didn't :(

And here is the translation of that article I have come up with:

Title
"The highest scoring submarine commanders in WWII"
Text
"The best sailors-mariners of Second World War were the submarine crews from Germany. At the start of the war (September 1, 1939) the Germans had at their disposal only 57 submarines, of those 35 were of coastal activity (displacement 250 tons each) and 22 were capable of ocean activity (displacement of 500 and 700 tons). Having such mediocre forces the German underwater fleet began its fight for Atlantics. In the course of war (when in the first months the submarines displayed their high effectiveness) a major program of underwater fleet build-up began in Germany. In 5 years and 8 months of war 1157 submarines were built. Therefore the total strength of German fleet made up 1214 submarines, of which 789 were destroyed (according to allied data) or 651 (according to German data). A significant number of german submarines was lost under heavy bombardment of naval bases and other places where submarines rested. After Germany’s capitulation 159 submarines surrendered. The rest were sunk by their commanders. From 39000 seaman-submariners, participating in combat operations, 32000 died. The majority of them in the last two years of war.
German seaman-submariners sank 2603 allied ships with total displacement of 13,5 mln.tons (only proved data is considered). From the total number of allied losses from submarines 61% are the ships, going separately from convoys; 9% - those left behind and 30% - going with convoys. AS a result 70 thousand military seamen and 30 thousand commercial seamen died. The correlation of losses versus victories is - 1:3,3 (according to allied data) and 1:4 (according to german data) in favor of submarines. In April 1945 Germany was prepared to fight again with English-American fleet in the ocean. The germans at that moment had the best submarines of ХХI-series and experienced commanders, best of the best. Germany managed to save them for deciding battles. But, fortunately for English and American seamen, the fight for Atlantics was won on the groung by allied forces.
The list of german aces of submarine warfare, who sank ships with total displacement of over 100 thousand tons:
1. Otto Krechmer sank 44 ships, including 1 destroyer, - 266629 tons.
2. Wolfgang Lut - 43 ships, including 1 submarine, - 225712 tons (according to other sources, 47 ships - 228981 tons).
3. Erich Topp - 34 ships, including 1 American destroyer, - 193684 tons.
4. Herbert Schultze - 28 ships - 183432 tons (he is credited for sinking the first officially recognized ship by german submarines, - transport "Bosnia" - sank on September 5, 1939).
5. Henrich Lemann-Willenbrock - 25 ships - 183253 tons.
6. Karl-Fridrich Merten - 29 ships - 180869 tons.
7. Henrich Libe - 31 ships - 167886 tons.
8. Gunther Prin - 30 ships - 164953 tons. Gunther Prin became the first officer of Germany who received oak leaves to the Knight Cross. This outstanding seaman died very early – March 8, 1941 (on attack on convoy, going from Liverpool to Halifax).
9. Iochim Schepke - 39 ships - 159130 tons.
10. Georg Lassen - 26 ships - 156082 tons.
11. Werner Henke - 24 ships - 155714 tons.
12. Iohan Mor - 27 ships, includint a corvette and AA cruiser, - 129292 tons.
13. Engelbert Endras - 22 ships, including 2 cruisers, - 128879 tons.
14. Reinhardt Hardegen - 23 ships - 119405 tons.
15. Werner Hartmann - 24 ships - 115616 tons.
Also worth mentioning is Albrecht Brandi, who sank a mine-sweeper and destroyer; Reinhardt Zuren (95092 tons), who sank a corvette; Fritz Julius Lemp (68607 tons), who damaged English battleship "Barham" and who really sank the first ship of all those destroyed by german submarine fleet, - passenger transport "Athenia" (it happened on September 3, 1939 but was not acknowledged by german side); Otto Schukhart (80688 tons), who sank on September 7, 1939 an English aircraft carrier "Courageous"; Hans-Dietrich von Tisenhausen, who sank on November 25, 1941 an English battleship "Barham".
Only five best submariners of Germany managed to sink 174 battle and transport ships of allies with total displacement of 1 million 52 thousand 710 tons. For comparison: the soviet fleet had on June 22, 1941, 212 submarines (plus 54 built during the war). These forces (267 submarines) sank 157 enemy ships - 462300 tons (according to verified data). The losses of soviet submarine fleet are 98 submarines (without 4 submarines lost by Pacific Ocean fleet). In 1941 - 34, in 1942 - 35, in 1943 - 19, in 1944 - 9, in 1945 - 1. The correlation of losses and victories is - 1:1,6 in favor of submarines.
The best soviet submarine commander Alexander Ivanovich Marinesco sank 4 passanger and commercial ships with total displacement of 42507 tons:
On January 30, 1945 – the passenger liner "Wilhelm Gustlow" - 25484 tons (on S-13 submarine); February 10, 1945 – a large transport "General von Schtoiben" - 14660 tons (on S-13); August 14, 1942 – transport ship "Helene" - 1800 tons (on М-96); October 9, 1944 – little transport “Ziegfried" - 563 tons (on S-13). For sinking liner "Wilhelm Gustlow" Alexander Marinesco was honored by being placed in the list of personal enemies of fuhrer and Germany. On the sank liner died 3700 unter-officers – graduates from school of underwater sailing, 100 commanders of submarines, who finished a special course on improvement of commanding submarines with a single engine of Walter system, 22 high nazi party members from East Prussia, several generals and higher officers of SS, SS support battalion of Danzig port with strength of 300 men, and in total over 8000 people (!!!). Just like after capitulation of the 6th Army in Stalingrad, an official mourning was issued in Germany, and the plans of Hitler to continue and unrestricted total submarine warfare were seriously hampered. For 2 outstanding victories in January-February 1945 all members of Marinesco’s crew were recommended for state decorations, and S-13 submarine received and order of Red Banner. The legendary seaman himself, being under purge, received his main decoration posthumously in May 1990. He was awarded the title of Hero of Soviet Union 45 years after the war. Beyond doubt that Alexander Marinesco deserved that his monuments were to be erected not only in Russia but in Great Britain and United States of America. His accomplishment saved a lot of lives of English and American sailors and approached the time of Victory in Europe.
3 rank captain Alexander Marinesco heads the list of soviet submarine commanders not in the number of ships sunk but in total displacement and total damage done to war effort of Germany. After him go the following most successful submarine commanders:
2. Valentin Starikov (lieutenant commander, commander of submarines М-171, К-1, Northern Fleet) - 14 ships;
3. Ivan Travkin (3 rank captain, captain of submarines Sh-303, К-52, Baltic Fleet) - 13 ships;
4. Nikolai Lunin (3 rank captain, commander of submarines Sh-421, К-21, Northern Fleet) - 13 ships;
5. Magomed Gadzhiev (2 rank captain, commander of submarine division, Northern Fleet) - 10 ships;
6. Grigoriy Schedrin (2 rank captain, commander of S-56, Northern Fleet) - 9 ships;
7. Samuil Bogorad (3 rank captain, commander of submarine Sh-310, Baltic Fleet) - 7 ships;
8. Mikhail Kalinin (lieutenant commander, commander of Sh-307, Baltic Fleet) - 6 ships;
9. Nikolai Mokhov (lieutenant commander, commander of Sh-317, Baltic Fleet) - 5 ships;
10. Evgeniy Osipov (lieutenant commander, commander of Sh-407, Baltic Fleet) - 5 ships.
In US Navy the most success was on the side of the crew of submarine "Totog" – it sank 26 enemy ships. According to displacement the best result belongs to the crew of submarine “Flasher" - 100231 tons. The most famous submarine commander in USA in the years of WWII was Joseph Inright.

Sources:
Charles S. Thomas "The German Navy in the Nazi Era", London, 1990;
Mitchem S., Muller G. "Commanders of Third Reich".
Smolensk, "Rusich", 1995; "The stamp of secrecy is removed: The losses of Armed forces of USSR in wars, combat operations and war conflicts: Statistical research".
М., Voenizdat, 1993; B.Liddell Hart "Second World War". М., Voenizdat, 1976; Encyclopedia "Great Patriotic War. 1941-1945", М., 1985; "Equipment and weapons", 1995, № 3-4;
"Aces of underwater warfare", published "ATF", 1997."

I bet I screwed up the names of most german submarine commanders but I tried it as best as I could.

Best regards

Return to “The Soviet Union at War 1917-1945”