Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

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stg 44
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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by stg 44 » 31 Mar 2021 02:42

per70 wrote:
30 Mar 2021 18:26
KDF33 wrote:
06 Feb 2021 03:34
Do you think you could repost it here? It was amazingly useful information and is impossible to find anywhere on the web since ACG shut down.
I'm a bit unsure about the specific data table you're looking for.

But for the ration strength figures, you can take a look here:
https://www.soldat.ru/doc/gko/gko1941.html
https://www.soldat.ru/doc/gko/gko1942.html

11.09.41:
https://www.soldat.ru/doc/gko/text/0660.html

15.10.41:
https://www.soldat.ru/doc/gko/text/0806.html
Do you know if the Soviets had a different system for ration strength vs. actual strength like the German army did with its multiple categories of strengths? I'm trying to figure out how accurate the GKO reports were for specific dates for Soviet frontline strength during the fighting for Smolensk and the GKO reports read like they're estimates of ration needs going forward rather than strength at that specific time.

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by godavid » 16 Apr 2021 12:12

I have a question,i hope this is the right place to ask, during the war there were something called peoples militsia drafted in the cities plus volunters joining them,but i have never seen anything specific written about them in english ,how many, where on the front they where , what happened and so on,if anybody here in the forum know anything please tell us , thanks

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AMVAS
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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by AMVAS » 16 Apr 2021 19:49

godavid wrote:
16 Apr 2021 12:12
I have a question,i hope this is the right place to ask, during the war there were something called peoples militsia drafted in the cities plus volunters joining them,but i have never seen anything specific written about them in english ,how many, where on the front they where , what happened and so on,if anybody here in the forum know anything please tell us , thanks
Hi
I think you mean "Narodnoye Opolcheniye" divisions.
I'm not sure what exists about them in English, but in Russian their listing you can find here.
http://www.teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/Perec ... 03.html#02
Mostly they were formed in Moscow and Leningrad, but some of thsoe also could be seen in Crimea and Polar areas.
sections IV - V.

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Art » 17 Apr 2021 07:50

stg 44 wrote:
31 Mar 2021 02:42
Do you know if the Soviets had a different system for ration strength vs. actual strength like the German army did with its multiple categories of strengths? I'm trying to figure out how accurate the GKO reports were for specific dates for Soviet frontline strength during the fighting for Smolensk and the GKO reports read like they're estimates of ration needs going forward rather than strength at that specific time.
In January 1942 the number of rations was estimated in the following way:
allocated by the GKO decree of 15.10.41 for the IV quarter of 1941 - 8,006,000
plus additional formations ordered by the GKO from 14.10.41 to 4.01.42 (almost 600,000) - 8,598,695 rations total.
Red Army's strength (roster strength as of 20.12.1942) - 8,812,108, including 344,058 officers in military districts, who didn't receive rations. Thus, the number of rations needed is 8,468,050. The rations overhead (8,598,695-8,468,050 = 130,545) is used for formation of new units after 20.12.1941 - total 141,395 men. The difference of 10,850 men is covered by reduction of existing unit's strength.
At the same time hospital and horses rations were simply allocated based on the numbers available on 20.12.1942.
The number of rations given to operational fronts simply coincided with the actual strength as of 20.12.1941, the number given to military district was somehow redistributed based on considerations which were not explicitly stated.

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stg 44
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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by stg 44 » 17 Apr 2021 14:10

Art wrote:
17 Apr 2021 07:50
stg 44 wrote:
31 Mar 2021 02:42
Do you know if the Soviets had a different system for ration strength vs. actual strength like the German army did with its multiple categories of strengths? I'm trying to figure out how accurate the GKO reports were for specific dates for Soviet frontline strength during the fighting for Smolensk and the GKO reports read like they're estimates of ration needs going forward rather than strength at that specific time.
In January 1942 the number of rations was estimated in the following way:
allocated by the GKO decree of 15.10.41 for the IV quarter of 1941 - 8,006,000
plus additional formations ordered by the GKO from 14.10.41 to 4.01.42 (almost 600,000) - 8,598,695 rations total.
Red Army's strength (roster strength as of 20.12.1942) - 8,812,108, including 344,058 officers in military districts, who didn't receive rations. Thus, the number of rations needed is 8,468,050. The rations overhead (8,598,695-8,468,050 = 130,545) is used for formation of new units after 20.12.1941 - total 141,395 men. The difference of 10,850 men is covered by reduction of existing unit's strength.
At the same time hospital and horses rations were simply allocated based on the numbers available on 20.12.1942.
The number of rations given to operational fronts simply coincided with the actual strength as of 20.12.1941, the number given to military district was somehow redistributed based on considerations which were not explicitly stated.
Thanks Art!

wwilson
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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by wwilson » 18 Apr 2021 12:22

@AMVAS

Thank you for the URL noted below. That site is a very useful resource.

Cheers

Referring to: http://www.teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/Perec ... 03.html#02

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AMVAS
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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by AMVAS » 18 Apr 2021 18:45

wwilson wrote:
18 Apr 2021 12:22
@AMVAS

Thank you for the URL noted below. That site is a very useful resource.

Cheers
Welcome ;)

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 02 Aug 2021 22:47

Art wrote:
15 Nov 2012 19:23
Some more info on the strength of the Soviet operational forces and breakdown by branches.

1 December 1941:
Total - 4 018 068 men
incl. ground forces - 3 394 000
Army air forces - 321 517
Navy - 302 545

1 May 1942:
Total - 5 677 915 men
incl. ground forces - 4 864 997
Army air forces - 237 907
Air Defense (PVO) - 272 466
Navy - 302 545

From A.V. Tolmacheva "Combat and numerical composition and losses of armed forces on the Soviet-German Front...", PhD thesis, 2006
Between Dec. '41 and May '42 the "army air forces" personnel declines while PVO first appears in your table. I know I've seen PVO personnel estimates for the beginning of Barbarossa (e.g. Askey)... Was PVO included under VVS (= "army air forces"?) in your table up to May '42?
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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Art » 03 Aug 2021 08:42

Separate command of PVO was created in November 1941 and it fully incorporated fighter air force elements in early 1942. For that reason, before that it was not counted as a separate arm in official publications. At the start of the war that was the PVO Main Directorate which controlled organization, administration, personnel and training of ground air defense units (anti-aircraft artillery, machine guns, searchlights, warning network etc). Operationally they were commanded by fronts and military districts. Fighter force detached for air defense of large cities or industrial centers as well as their ground organization were a part of the Red Army's Air Force. Accordingly the first were counted as a part of ground forces, the second - RA air force.

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Kelvin » 04 Aug 2021 12:32

Art wrote:
03 Aug 2021 08:42
Separate command of PVO was created in November 1941 and it fully incorporated fighter air force elements in early 1942. For that reason, before that it was not counted as a separate arm in official publications. At the start of the war that was the PVO Main Directorate which controlled organization, administration, personnel and training of ground air defense units (anti-aircraft artillery, machine guns, searchlights, warning network etc). Operationally they were commanded by fronts and military districts. Fighter force detached for air defense of large cities or industrial centers as well as their ground organization were a part of the Red Army's Air Force. Accordingly the first were counted as a part of ground forces, the second - RA air force.
Hello, Art, in Kiev Kassel, there are 3rd PVO division , is it belonged to Red Army or Red Air Force ? Thank

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Art » 04 Aug 2021 18:58

For all practical purposes, the Red Army's Air Force aka VVS was not a separate branch but a part of the Red Army. The Red Army of 1941 was managed by the People's Commissariat for Defense which included among other elements the Main Directorate for Air Forces which controlled flying units and their ground infrastructure and the Main Directorate for Air Defense which controlled ground anti-aircraft elements (other than those organic to corps/divisions). So all PVO divisions as well as other PVO units were completely separate from air forces.

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Kelvin » 05 Aug 2021 05:11

Art wrote:
04 Aug 2021 18:58
For all practical purposes, the Red Army's Air Force aka VVS was not a separate branch but an part of the Red Army. The Red Army of 1941 was managed by the People's Commissariat for Defense which included among other elements the Main Directorate for Air Forces which controlled flying units and their ground infrastructure and the Main Directorate for Air Defense which controlled ground anti-aircraft elements (other than those organic to corps/divisions). So all PVO divisions as well as other PVO units were completely separate from air forces.
Hi, Art, thank so much for your answer.

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Art » 27 Nov 2021 08:20

Art wrote:
26 Dec 2020 12:48
Breakdown personnel strength of the Red Army according to the all-Union census of 1939 (as submitted by K.Voroshilov to V. Molotov on 7.2.1939)
File of the Red Army's General Staff with data on the number of military personnel covered by the all-Union census:
https://wbh.wp.mil.pl/c/scans/WKA_VIII_ ... 0_2_31.pdf

According to this file the census registered:
Commanding officers - 130,616 men + 41 women
Other officers (political, technical, administrative, medical etc) - 127,767 men + 816 women
NCOs - 338,480 men + 75 women
Privates - 1,165,955 men + 0 women
Students of military academies and universities - 27,481 men + 96 women
Cadets - 119,150 men + 0 women
Total 1,909,449 men + 1028 women

Corrected distribution by districts:
Districts - Total personnel (including women)
Moscow Military District – 129 659 (260)
Leningrad MD – 200 043 (149)
Kiev MD – 267 784 (77)
North-Caucasus MD – 51 663 (76)
Central Asia MD – 33 077 (20)
Transcaucasus MD – 50 666 (30)
Volga MD – 53 613 (36)
Ural MD – 28 341 (20)
Siberian MD – 31 497 (52)
Transbaikal MD – 101 106 (7)
Kalinin MD – 37 197 (22)
Orel MD – 35 269 (23)
1 Sep.Army (Far East) – 324 358 (15)
2 Sep.Army (Far East) – 218 533 (6)
Kharkov MD – 86 574 (40)
Belorussian MD – 209 798 (74)
Special Corps (Mongolia) – 46 186 (5)
Central directorates - 5113 (116)

Total 1,910,477 (1028)

It's clear that most women in the military were medical officers.

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Art » 27 Nov 2021 09:02

A smiliar infomation: report on the number of military personnel who swore military oath on 23-24 February 1939:

Red Army:
Commanding officers - 133,928
Political officers - 35,570
Technical officers - 47,198
Administrative officers - 29,858
Medical officers - 12,200
Veterinary officers - 2,873
Juridical officers - 922
Total officers 262,549

Students of military academies or universities - 16,360
Cadets of military schools - 86,865
Cadets of training courses:
a) Courses for jr.lieutenants - 44,741
b) Courses for jr. military technicians - 10,536
c) Courses for intendants [administrative officers] - 2,243
NCOs - 288,047
Deputy and assistant politruks [political leaders] - 18,082
Privates - 960,656
Total Red Army 1,689,379

Personnel under civil administration (construction battalions, railroad corps etc)
Commanding officers - 3,978
Political officers - 1,044
Technical officers - 1,380
Administrative officers - 894
Medical officers - 359
Veterinary officers - 85
Juridical officers - 30
Total officers - 7,770

NCOs - 12,187
Privates - 185,116
Total 206,673 personnel

Total Red Army and civil formations - 1,895,152
Also 170,864 civil personnel
19,067 reservists on training

Distribution by districts (commands)
Transcaucasus MD - 50,809
Central Asian MD - 32,221
Siberian MD - 31,589
Transbaikal MD - 95,478
Ural MD - 28,185
Leningrad MD - 190,048
Special Corps (Mongolia) - 46,263
2nd Separate Army - 202,469
North-Caucasus MD - 48,541
Volga MD - 53,758
Belorussian MD - 206,215
Kharkov MD - 90,233
Orel MD - 35,190
Kiev MD - 270,958
Moscow MD - 116,487
1st Separate Army - 331,406
Kalinin MD - 35,846
Military academies - 23,817
Central Directorates - 5631

I guess, these numbers were more or less close to the actual strength on that day (23.2.39). Also they were in good agreement with numbers given by the census a month earlier.

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by tramonte » 29 Nov 2021 16:41

Art can probably answer to question what was Red Army's "divisional slice" in mid 1944? Was it on average more than 10,000 men or even less than that? (That "divisional slice" is strength of whole army or front divided by numbers of divisions)
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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