Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Qvist · Post by **Qvist** » 18 Oct 2005 14:42

Hello Morden

The explanation is simple - in both cases, the strength (and losses) quoted refer to only a part of the Front's forces (as not the whole Front was involved in either of these operations). See note "Parts" written behind the figure. Specifically, they refer to just 6th Army in both operations. That reminds me, I need to get in the general overview sheets for 1943-45, where things like these are clarified.

cheers

Morden · Post by **Morden** » 18 Oct 2005 16:04

Qvist wrote:Hello Morden

The explanation is simple - in both cases, the strength (and losses) quoted refer to only a part of the Front's forces (as not the whole Front was involved in either of these operations). See note "Parts" written behind the figure. Specifically, they refer to just 6th Army in both operations. That reminds me, I need to get in the general overview sheets for 1943-45, where things like these are clarified.

That's not true - in Gallop every army of South-Western Front - 1st Guards, 3rd Guards, 6th (maybe with exception of 5th Tank which had only fraction of Front's forces - three depleted ID) were involved

. But your explanation concerning notes clarifies the figures. Thanks!
Do you have figures for South-Western Front during "Gallop" and Manstein's counterstroke?

Morden

Qvist · Post by **Qvist** » 18 Oct 2005 18:20

That's not true - in Gallop every army of South-Western Front - 1st Guards, 3rd Guards, 6th (maybe with exception of 5th Tank which had only fraction of Front's forces - three depleted ID) were involved Smile . But your explanation concerning notes clarifies the figures. Thanks!
Do you have figures for South-Western Front during "Gallop" and Manstein's counterstroke?

Just Glantz, which you have already. Operations can be defined in many ways - here we are stuck with Krivosheev's. The main thing is to know what it includes and what it doesn't.

cheers

zhukov2005 · Post by **zhukov2005** » 11 Nov 2005 13:41

Gentlemen,

It looks like I have access to a researcher in Russia that has access to Army-level strength/casualty and equipment loss reports (10 day intervals) for the GPW.

He is trying to confirm now exactly what the reports are (there are ten of them).

If anyone wants in, please contact me off-forum

Craig Crofoot
craig.crofoot@spectrumbrands.com

Morden · Post by **Morden** » 20 Nov 2005 17:03

Here is Krivosheev in russian:

http://www.rus-sky.org/history/library/w/

Morden

Doppleganger · Post by **Doppleganger** » 22 Jan 2006 01:30

Upon reading some of the data compiled by Krivosheev I am astonished at his reported extent of Soviet losses on the Eastern Front in WW2. Especially astonishing are the losses in 1944, when the Red Army was in the ascendancy.

How accurate is the data in his book? Did the Red Army & Navy really lose 6,878,641 men and 13,800 medium tanks in 1944, as the following link and table would suggest?

http://www.magweb.com/sample/sgmbn/sgm80soj.htm

These figures are truly staggering.

Qvist · Post by **Qvist** » 22 Jan 2006 08:24

Doppelganger:

It is, with considerable reason, widely reagrded as the most comprehensive analysis of Soviet losses in existence, and rests on a thorough research effort by a large team into a large selection of materials that have been and remain mostly unavailable to researchers in general. There has been criticisms, but these have as far as I know been t9o the effect of his figures being too low - this pertains specifically to the losses in the Winter war, during 1941 and among POWs. I have never seen his 1944 figures questioned, and there is IMo little reason for doing so. I don't think tihs table contains anything about tank losses though?

cheers

Doppleganger · Post by **Doppleganger** » 22 Jan 2006 11:43

Hi Qvist.

No the tank losses data was taken from the website that the table was linked from. Basically an overview of Krivosheev's book.

I was sure of the general accuracy of his book, given the many nods to his analysis and data by people in the know. I just did not expect the 1944 figures to be quite so high, or the 1943 ones for that matter.

All we need now is one definitive work that has the casualty figures, both men and equipment, for both sides and at all stages of the war, so that direct comparisions can be made. Sadly it looks like this may be impossible from the German side at least in 1945 though.

Cheers.

Qvist · Post by **Qvist** » 22 Jan 2006 13:11

Hi Doppelganger

I was sure of the general accuracy of his book, given the many nods to his analysis and data by people in the know. I just did not expect the 1944 figures to be quite so high, or the 1943 ones for that matter.

A very understandable sense of surprise. It is clear that the Red Army paid very heavily indeed for its advances in 1943-44.

All we need now is one definitive work that has the casualty figures, both men and equipment, for both sides and at all stages of the war, so that direct comparisions can be made. Sadly it looks like this may be impossible from the German side at least in 1945 though.

Amen to that. I think such a work would be feasible, if possibly not quite until the very end.

cheers

César C. · Post by **César C.** » 02 Feb 2006 22:44

Hello everybody.

I can't find the specific figures for the "Mars" offensive of November 1942 (second Rzhev offensive), neither for the Kalinin nor the Western Front.
Are they not included in the tables posted by Qvist?

Regards

Qvist · Post by **Qvist** » 03 Feb 2006 08:09

No. No details about Mars in Krivosheev, though I understand this is corrected in later editions.

cheers

César C. · Post by **César C.** » 04 Feb 2006 02:42

Thanks for your answer Qvist.
I believe that Glantz has taken a lot of flak for the casualty figures he gave in his book about Operation Mars.
Well, I believe this thread is not the right place to talk about this issue. I'll see what I can find around AHF.

Cheers.

Panzerfaust XxX · Post by **Panzerfaust XxX** » 21 Mar 2006 03:19

I have often wondered the manpower of various Soviet Fronts.

Thanks!!

Yuri · Post by **Yuri** » 19 Jun 2006 18:28

Doppleganger wrote:Upon reading some of the data compiled by Krivosheev I am astonished at his reported extent of Soviet losses on the Eastern Front in WW2. Especially astonishing are the losses in 1944, when the Red Army was in the ascendancy.

How accurate is the data in his book? Did the Red Army & Navy really lose 6,878,641 men and 13,800 medium tanks in 1944, as the following link and table would suggest?

http://www.magweb.com/sample/sgmbn/sgm80soj.htm

These figures are truly staggering.

Probably you have no good knowledge of scales of military actions which were conducted by Red Army against forces of the Axis.
For example, in 1942 the general number the soldier and officers of armies of the countries of the Axis who conducted operations against Red Army, made 6,2 million men.
Including Wermacht - 5,3 million men.
About scales of war which was conducted by Red Army, it is possible to judge on following figures.
In total for four years GPW against Red Army it has been exposed 21,5 million soldier and officers of the countries of the Axis. Including 17,5 million Germans.
In total in Red Army it has been called 34,5 million person, including 450,0 thousand women.
From these 34,5 million to forces of armies of the Axis resisted 25,5 million soldier and officers of Red Army.
In total irrevocable losses of Red Army (the victims who have died of wound, taken prisoner, missing persons) have made almost 12,0 million.
Irrevocable losses of armies of the Axis have made more than 9,0 million.

AMVAS · Post by **AMVAS** » 19 Jun 2006 19:24

Panzerfaust XxX wrote:I have often wondered the manpower of various Soviet Fronts.

Thanks!!

I got two books covering strength of all Soviet forces (Army-Front scale) on June 22'41 and Nov 20'42

Alex