Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Art » 12 Feb 2017 18:41

Actual strength of the Red Army (roster strength) by early May 1943 by components:

Battle rifle units (rifle corps, division and brigades) - 4 001 690
Replacement rifle units - 1 172 935
Training rifle units - 247 201
Infantry officer schools - 275 329
Airborne troops - 40 815
Fortified regions - 207 725
GHQ artillery - 832 918
Rocket artillery - 129 868
Cavalry - 199 651
Armored troops - 645 061
Territorial air defense (PVO) - 404 846
Field anti-aircraft artillery - 138 298
Flame troops - 16 358
Chemical - 41 020
Signal - 267 208
Engineer - 297 316
Topographical - 15 317
Road construction and maintenance - 144 708
Motor transport - 203 527
Local rifle troops (security) - 67 833
Animal transport - 36 993
Field HQ (armies and fronts) - 105 314
Military districts' HQ - 5 873
Local military administration - 26 509
NKO central apparatus - 9 772
Military acceptance offices at factories - 5 321
Partisan forces (regular cadre) - 4 664
Political organs and political schools - 50 695
Services of supply and corresponding schools - 476 398
Convalescent units - 81 574

Red Army Air Force:
Flying units - 129 393
Replacement units - 42 691
Ground services - 345 749
Air force schools - 117 663
Total air force - 635 496

Total Red Army - 10 788 233

From an appendix to the GKO decree "On Red Army's personnel strength", 2 May 1943:
http://soldat.ru/doc/gko/scans/3282-04-1.jpg
http://soldat.ru/doc/gko/scans/3282-05-1.jpg
Unless indicated replacement units and officer schools are included in the corresponding services strength.

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Art » 12 Feb 2017 18:53

Average strength of Red Army's operational forces in 1943-1945:

Rifle and airborne units - 2 673 000
Fortified regions - 81 000
Cavalry - 125 000
Armored - 432 000
GHQ artillery - 565 000
Rocket artillery - 96 000
Field anti-aircraft artillery - 168 000
Flame - 12 000
Signal - 154 000
Engineer - 191 000
Road - 150 000
Motor transport - 96 000
Army Air force - 394 000
others (SoS, replacement, schools, PVO etc) - 1 319 000
Total 6 455 000 men
Calculated from "Soviet casualties and combat losses" by G. Krivosheev.

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Stiltzkin » 13 Feb 2017 04:01

Average strength of Red Army's operational forces in 1943-1945
Is there any document that shows ration, daily, combat and front strength for all periods?

Most Soviet figures seem to resemble German Tagesstärke (daily).

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Art » 13 Feb 2017 10:08

All the numbers above unless specially indicated refer to roster strength of military personnel. In Soviet reporting practice personnel evacuated to hospitals were excluded from rosters and were counted in separate medical reports. Hence unless socially mentioned hospital patients are not included in the count. There were no direct analogues of German-style ration, daily, combat and front strength in top-level documents. Normal reporting also counted civil personnel in military units, the totals being:
Number of civilian personnel (women and men) on 1st January of the respective year.
Year Total in the Red Army Of them in operational fronts
1943 369673 157500
1944 459198 212154
1945 512161 234759
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=154463

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Stiltzkin » 13 Feb 2017 16:47

Often than not, they do not include NKVD personnel, nor reserves. Partisans are almost never included. This will always give a distorted figure in strength comparisons.

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Art » 02 Mar 2017 20:15

Neither Ostheer numbers usually include Schuma or police forces on occupied territories. NKVD troops in the front-line zone normally numbered tens thousand men (see the previous page).

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Stiltzkin » 02 Mar 2017 22:03

Neither Ostheer numbers usually include Schuma or police forces
Actually, usually they do. NKVD troops and massive reserves can hardly be compared to units that do not participate in the offensives, unlike NKVD which did. Most Soviet figures refer to daily strength, while German ration to actual strength figures are almost exclusively used for comparisons (which are highly inflated, especially with every passing year).
Soviet literature gave distorted figures over decades. Russian literature continues to do so, with a few exceptions (Zamulin). The notion of numerical parity or a shift in strengths still exists.

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Art » 02 Mar 2017 22:28

Stiltzkin wrote: Actually, usually they do.
I believe you are wrong, but it's not the topic here.
NKVD troops and massive reserves can hardly be compared to units that do not participate in the offensives, unlike NKVD which did
NKVD troops were forces engaged in security missions in the rear zones which were not supposed to operate as first-line units (naturally exceptions occurred). In any case you can find information on NKVD troops and reserves on previous pages.
Most Soviet figures refer to daily strength
As I told you - no they don't. There were no available strength reports above small units level. All figures for large formation refer to roster strength. Trying to apply terms from German staff practice to the Soviet one doesn't make much sense IMO, since they were different.

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Stiltzkin » 02 Mar 2017 23:01

I believe you are wrong, but it's not the topic here.

As I told you - no they don't.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 9808430334

...

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 03 Mar 2017 07:38

This is not a public access source (unless you pay the £28!) so if anyone would like to read it PM me.
I have access to JSMS through the School of Slavonic Studies at the University of London

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Art » 03 Mar 2017 07:40

Zetterling says quite honestly that he doesn't know much about Soviet reporting system. You can consult a regulation on accounting of Red Army personnel which describes all relevant reports and other documents on all levels of command:
http://soldat.ru/doc/nko/text/1944-023.html
The conclusion is like I said above.

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Stiltzkin » 03 Mar 2017 15:01

The conclusion is like I said above.
No, this has nothing to do with either working with German or Soviet sources, these are the ambiguities and problems that emerge when working with all kinds of sources. Maybe you haven't made it past the first page yet, I suggest you read the complete criticism.
much about Soviet reporting system
This has changed, as he works with both archives now.

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Re: Re:

Post by Hiryu- » 05 Oct 2017 22:20

Art wrote:
AMVAS wrote:A new Russian book published recently contains many interesting tables covering total strength of the Soviet army.
http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/23 ... tner=AMVAS
It title: "Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voina 1941-45. Dejstvuyushchaya Armiya"
During the forum downtime I translated some data tables from this book giving the strength of Soviet Armed Forces for several reference ponits in the period 1941-45. Apart from the number of personnel they include numbers of equipment, but I hope nobody is against it. The primary source of these data is a series of handbooks "The combat and numerical composition of the Soviet Armed Forces in the period of GPW" issued by the Institute of Military History at the Russsian Defence Ministry beginning from 1993 . Here the personnal numbers pertain to military personnel in ranks of the Red Army and Red Navy. Civilian personnel, hospitalized wounded and sick, military personnel of NKVD troops and other organizations are not included in the tables.

1st December 1941

Image

1st May 1942

Image

1st November 1942

Image

1st July 1943
Image

1st January 1944

Image

1st June 1944
Image

1st January 1945
Image
Hello, how credible are the aircrafts numbers? They seem very high to me. Soviet aircraft strength is much lower in Ellis (WW2 databook) or Zetterling (Kursk 1943) books.

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Art » 06 Oct 2017 12:19

I don't see anything obviously wrong. Could you quote respective parts from Ellis and Zetterling?

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Re: Soviet Fronts strengths: Overview

Post by Hiryu- » 06 Oct 2017 14:58

Ellis in the WW2 Databook table 17 p.231 gives "USSR frontline combat aircraft strength including Stavka reserve" in June 1943 at 8,290 and at 11,800 in June 1944.
You can find Zetterling numbers here: https://books.google.fr/books?id=lZb7AQ ... er&f=false
He puts "Soviet strength" at 11,993 for July 1943 (frontline, reserve, rear forces).

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