Steen Ammentorp wrote:Split from this thread
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=85366
Karman wrote:
As for the motives of the Allied intervention during the Civil War. They were simple and geopolitical to wit: extermination of Russia as a world power in Europe. Though the genocide was not officially proclaimed but it followed as the consequence of the implementation of the plan.
Hi Karmen,
Though this may sound a bit harsh I find your statements absurd to say the least and completely unfounded in reality. While I have no problem accepting that the Allied intervention was founded in nationalistic and egotistical reasons I have never encountered this master plan that you picture here. Could you please elaborate on this?
Kind Regards
Steen Ammentorp
The Generals of World War II
Hi Steen Ammentrop:
First, there is no problem in sounding harsh. A good portion of harsh gingers up the conversation imho.
As for the plans of Allies with regard to Russia and her future after the WW1. I would not dare to claim that they had always been the same and meant partition and conquer of the country. First it was a fair play to a reasonable extent when all players were selfish and egoistic. Though even in the beginning of the WW1 I think that the interference of the Wetern Allies into Russian domestic problems and support of "democratic polititians" and members of the State Duma was not loyal to their Monarchic Ally.
Moreover I would not say that the plans of Entente were the same and constituted a unified position towards the subject. The interests of all countries involved were different and varied in the course of time depending on strenghtenning or weakenning of positions of other players.
Officially the Brest-Litovsk Peace Treaty signed by Bolsheviks proved their betrayal of the Allien interests and thus excluded themselves from the Entente. But on December 3, 1917 according to the verbatim of the Military Committee in London the decision on organization of separation of Southern Russia was taken. The British Ambassador in Russia Beukenen received the instruction to finance separatist movements in Ukrain and among Cossacks.
I understand that my understanding of Russian territory and your one may not match. For me both Ukraine, Georgia and Baltic States were part of the Russian State. For you they could had the right for political self-determination even before that was approved by a legitimate Russian govt. That is why I want to point out that Cossacks were and are ethnic Russians and in addition to them the proposed Southern State should had included a huge part of Russian lands.
France recognized the unauthorized by the central Russian Govt the Ukrainian State proclaimed by a Rada in December 1917 already when Bolsheviks did not sign any peace treaty with Germans yet. So the plans on partition of the Russian State started to get implemented.
Anyway I would like to discuss in this thread the Allien plans to organize separatist puppet states on the territory enhabited by ethnic Russians.
The first Allied forces landed on the Russian territory in December 1917. Those were Japanese who occupied Vladivostok. Then Britts landed in Murmansk, then Archangelsk was captured. Japanese intentions were always clear and straight to wit: they planned to occupy the whole Siberia till the Urals. Neither French nor British nor American governemnts were ready to give such a prize to Japan but they did not have force to resist. And British govermnent recognized the Japanese rights on occupation of Siberia. As Sir William Wiseman advised to American colonel Hause (spell?). Only President Wilson opposed the occupatuion of Siberia by Japan.
The farther in, the deeper. In July 1918 Americans decided to start the intervention into Russia together with Japanese. According to their agreements the intervention corpses of both countries should be limited to 7,000 people each. In the end of July British foreign minister Lord Balfur (?) asked president Willson to permit the Japanese to increase their military involvance into Siberia ten times. Lloyd George appointed Charls Eliot the supreme British commissar in Siberia.
Britts organized a separatrist puppet government in Archangelsk and tried to capture the territory in the range outlined by Archangelsk, Vologda and Viatka westablishing control over the Northern Urals and two warm-water-seaports (Archangelsk nd Murmansk). Britts started to mint own currency on that territory.
Japanese increased their military contingent ten times and reached 70,000 people to colonize Siberia.
And all those actions including capturing of ports and seizure of territories, transportation of military troops were performed on the basis of approval of local unauthorized puppet governments established and picked up by mighty "Allies".
The book I refer to is: Utkin A.I. "Pervaya Mirovaya Voyna". Moscow Algoritm 2001.
Regards