...and you guys say that we're full of ourselves...

Discussions on all aspects of the USSR, from the Russian Civil War till the end of the Great Patriotic War and the war against Japan. Hosted by Art.
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Ando
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Post by Ando » 17 Oct 2002 06:11

I wonder how much of those resources and equipment was used against the USA and its allies during WW2 and the early stages of the cold war.

Logan Hartke
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Post by Logan Hartke » 17 Oct 2002 06:17

I know that many of the vacuum tubes and Studebakers were re-used.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 17 Oct 2002 06:18

Logan Hartke wrote:
oleg wrote:- owe a gerat dela to America -care to clarify?

Sure. Lend Lease saved the lives of many Russians. Do you deny this?

Logan Hartke
I don't see how is that in any way related to Soviet Armor or VVS for that matter

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Post by Logan Hartke » 17 Oct 2002 06:21

Death of pilots and tank crewman have nothing to do with their respective services? News to me. If thousands of lives are saved in your respective service, I shoudl think that you'd make a memorial to them. Especially since many American, Norweigian, British lives were lost in getting those supplies to the Soviet Union.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 17 Oct 2002 06:37

Logan Hartke wrote:...and as far as I know, the Soviet Union never paid back a dime of it.

Logan Hartke
it began to pay it during WW II (part of the payment went down with “Edinburgh” http://members.tripod.com/geordie_gen/edinburgh.htm) actually initially USSR overpaid because it transferred the money and received goods only for fraction of it - that was pretty much the situation till the end of 1942. As of now Russian Federation owns about 630 million for LL and it is suppose to pay it of by 2030. Interestingly enough Russian Federations is the only republic of former USSR who pays it. And Logan don’t make it sound like it was something that only USSR needed . As Churchill said it “no other form of investment could provide us with better military dividends” –he was echoed by US Admiral King : “we should not spare any effort in order to provide Russians with all war material they need. It is not about making Stalin happy – supplying Russians is in our own bets interests”.
Last edited by Oleg Grigoryev on 17 Oct 2002 06:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 17 Oct 2002 06:39

Logan Hartke wrote:Death of pilots and tank crewman have nothing to do with their respective services? News to me. If thousands of lives are saved in your respective service, I shoudl think that you'd make a memorial to them. Especially since many American, Norweigian, British lives were lost in getting those supplies to the Soviet Union.

Logan Hartke
most of LL went through the Pacfic, Logan but I really like to see how LL saved thousands of lives in respected services (by suplying "coffins for 7 brothers"?)

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Post by Logan Hartke » 17 Oct 2002 07:01

oleg wrote:it began to pay it during WW II (part of the payment went down with “Edinburgh”) actually initially USSR overpaid because it transferred the money and received goods only for fraction of it - that was pretty much the situation till the end of 1942. As of now Russian Federation owns about 630 million for LL and it is suppose to pay it of by 2030.

Yeah, well you won't be paid off until we get the money for the three Superfortresses in my opinion. Also, they never factored in inflation, nor was there interest, correct?
oleg wrote:Interestingly enough Russian Federations is the only republic of former USSR who pays it. And Logan don’t make it sound like it was something that only USSR needed . As Churchill said it “no other form of investment could provide us with better military dividends” –he was echoed by US Admiral King : “we should not spare any effort in order to provide Russians with all war material they need. It is not about making Stalin happy – supplying Russians is in our own bets interests”.

I'm not saying at all that I regret that the US did it, I'm just saying that there are not enough people in either the former USSR or the UK that realize how much the US gave them during the war.
oleg wrote:most of LL went through the Pacfic, Logan but I really like to see how LL saved thousands of lives in respected services (by suplying "coffins for 7 brothers"?)

No, thousands were saved by the T-34s made from American steel, running on American steel tracks, communicating with American radios, firing American steel shells and American explosive shells, eating American SPAM with bread made from American wheat that was delivered by an American truck running on American gas which were all supplied by an American-built Liberty ship manned by American sailors. Also, no one forced you guys to use the Lee in combat.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 17 Oct 2002 07:17

Logan Hartke wrote:
oleg wrote:it began to pay it during WW II (part of the payment went down with “Edinburgh”) actually initially USSR overpaid because it transferred the money and received goods only for fraction of it - that was pretty much the situation till the end of 1942. As of now Russian Federation owns about 630 million for LL and it is suppose to pay it of by 2030.

Yeah, well you won't be paid off until we get the money for the three Superfortresses in my opinion. Also, they never factored in inflation, nor was there interest, correct?
oleg wrote:Interestingly enough Russian Federations is the only republic of former USSR who pays it. And Logan don’t make it sound like it was something that only USSR needed . As Churchill said it “no other form of investment could provide us with better military dividends” –he was echoed by US Admiral King : “we should not spare any effort in order to provide Russians with all war material they need. It is not about making Stalin happy – supplying Russians is in our own bets interests”.

I'm not saying at all that I regret that the US did it, I'm just saying that there are not enough people in either the former USSR or the UK that realize how much the US gave them during the war.
oleg wrote:most of LL went through the Pacfic, Logan but I really like to see how LL saved thousands of lives in respected services (by suplying "coffins for 7 brothers"?)

No, thousands were saved by the T-34s made from American steel, running on American steel tracks, communicating with American radios, firing American steel shells and American explosive shells, eating American SPAM with bread made from American wheat that was delivered by an American truck running on American gas which were all supplied by an American-built Liberty ship manned by American sailors. Also, no one forced you guys to use the Lee in combat.

Logan Hartke


1.we should pay for super fortresses that you crashed on our territory????? Maybe we also should pay for U-2 that we shot down above the Sverdlovsk. also if you so interested about the inflation - why don't you find out -anyway shall I understand that you retract you previous point about not a cent paid? (as well as about museums)?

2.How many people are enough? And what exactly in your opinion should they understand –what they should began their day with razing of the “Old Glory” ?

3. Ok Logan – how many thousand were saved by T-34 mad form American steel. In fact how many T-34 were made form American steel? How many American shells did T-34 fired how much bred were made form American bred. Let’s hear it.

P.S what were we suppose to do with "coffins"????????

Logan Hartke
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Post by Logan Hartke » 17 Oct 2002 12:30

oleg wrote:1.we should pay for super fortresses that you crashed on our territory????? Maybe we also should pay for U-2 that we shot down above the Sverdlovsk. also if you so interested about the inflation - why don't you find out -anyway shall I understand that you retract you previous point about not a cent paid? (as well as about museums)?

Crashed? The pictures that I've seen of them show them in good condition. In fact, they didn't crash. Emergency landings and crashes are very different. Get it straight. As for your U-2 comment, well, that is just stupid. In 1945 when the Forts landed, the US and USSR were allies, unlike the Cold War. Do you understand the difference or must I further simplify it?

oleg wrote:2.How many people are enough? And what exactly in your opinion should they understand –what they should began their day with razing of the “Old Glory” ?

That's pushing it, oleg. Knowing about LL and raising Old Glory every morning are very different. Do you always have to take my words and stretch them to ridiculous extremes?

oleg wrote:3. Ok Logan – how many thousand were saved by T-34 mad form American steel. In fact how many T-34 were made form American steel? How many American shells did T-34 fired how much bred were made form American bred. Let’s hear it.

First of all, stop with the childish badgering. I only need to read it once. Secondly, you tell me how many T-34s could be built with 1.2 million tons of steel.

As for the Lees, they should've been used the way the Americans used them... FOR TRAINING! It's like using Texans in combat against 109s and complaining to the US. The Soviets were smart enough to use Tetrarches in this fashion, so what's wrong in this case? Were they just stupid?

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 17 Oct 2002 20:21

At this time USSR was neutral towards Japan –consequently any military aircraft which landed on USSR territory - be that Japanese or US would have been interned – and that is exactly what happened. Considering that alternative for US crews was to land in the hostile territory – I think US made farley good deal swapping crash landed planes for safe return of its crews.

That's pushing it, oleg. Knowing about LL and raising Old Glory every morning are very different. Do you always have to take my words and stretch them to ridiculous extremes?
-that because you maker ridiculous claims - what do you expect. So how many people are enough, and what exactly do you know of LL awareness of former recipient countries? .


First of all, stop with the childish badgering. I only need to read it once. Secondly, you tell me how many T-34s could be built with 1.2 million tons of steel.
none - T-34 is made from armor plating and not just any steel - accidentally how do you know that steel supplied by US went int the tank manufacturing and no a ship building for instance?

As for the Lees, they should've been used the way the Americans used them... FOR TRAINING! It's like using Texans in combat against 109s and complaining to the US. The Soviets were smart enough to use Tetrarches in this fashion, so what's wrong in this case? Were they just stupid?
Tetrarchs were used in combat as well – on the Caucasus front http://www.battlefield.ru/library/lend/tetrarch.html – also this model was very comparable with T-60/T-70. as for training … we had a lot of our own old junk for that purposes.

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Post by Mark V » 17 Oct 2002 22:16

oleg wrote: - accidentally how do you know that steel supplied by US went int the tank manufacturing and no a ship building for instance?


What kind of serious ship-building was going on in SU during WW2 (actually during the time you received lend-lease goods) when not counting MTBs, patrol boats and few submarines ??

I am interested.

I think US supplied steel went mostly for four major steel consumers: ammunition, weapons, railroads and vehicles (including AFVs).

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 17 Oct 2002 22:29

CEASE-FIRE!
Logan and Oleg you are both right.
Logan at in the past LL was not given the the value it deserved.
Oleg at in the modern Russia LL is confessed as an important part of their fight inWWII and today a lot of LL equipment are shown at museums and memorials.

Juha

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 17 Oct 2002 23:07

Mark V wrote:
oleg wrote: - accidentally how do you know that steel supplied by US went int the tank manufacturing and no a ship building for instance?


What kind of serious ship-building was going on in SU during WW2 (actually during the time you received lend-lease goods) when not counting MTBs, patrol boats and few submarines ??

I am interested.

I think US supplied steel went mostly for four major steel consumers: ammunition, weapons, railroads and vehicles (including AFVs).
Well for instance Cruiser “Kaganovich” commissioned December 6 1944, destroyers Reshitelniy, Retiviy, Razumniy, Rzyarenniy, Revnostniy, Rezkiy, Redkiy, Strogiy, Stroyniy, Svobodniy.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 17 Oct 2002 23:12

Juha Tompuri wrote:CEASE-FIRE!
Logan and Oleg you are both right.
Logan at in the past LL was not given the the value it deserved.
Oleg at in the modern Russia LL is confessed as an important part of their fight inWWII and today a lot of LL equipment are shown at museums and memorials.

Juha
Oh for crying out loud – “requiem for PQ-17” by Vlantin Pikul was a bets-seller when it came out and that was well into the Brezhnev times – and guess what is starts with hunt on Bismark. here if anybody read Russian http://valentinpikul.narod.ru/requiem.htm

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SerbTiger
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Post by SerbTiger » 18 Oct 2002 01:50

Can some one please tell me
Why does only Russia have to pay back landlease, what about Ukraian, Gruzia.....?

As for Logans crazy accusations I think there is no need to comment he tried to prove a point Oleg proved him wrong and now Logan is crying about it.

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