Some images of Soviet Partisans

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Starinov
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Post by Starinov » 29 Apr 2003 20:57

KalaVelka wrote:criminals, terrorists..
"The difference between a good and an evil man is the choice of his cause". Kyle Haddock

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KalaVelka
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Post by KalaVelka » 30 Apr 2003 06:15

Yep, and partisans werent angels u know that. Partisan war was ugly, bloody and sadistic but Germans werent only side which commited atrocities and still those partisans are somekind of heroes. I would not want to be German soldier and get to the hands of partisans, things would be even worse if i would be in SS.

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Post by Lars EP » 30 Apr 2003 11:31

KalaVelka wrote:Yep, and partisans werent angels u know that. Partisan war was ugly, bloody and sadistic but Germans werent only side which commited atrocities and still those partisans are somekind of heroes. I would not want to be German soldier and get to the hands of partisans, things would be even worse if i would be in SS.
Germans was definately not the only ones who committed astrocities. They have been committed since the dawn of Mankind. But... German troops, SS and Werhmach both, where the only ones who had a "carte blanche" to do whatever they pleased. This is explicitly expressed in the orders to von Rundtsteds from German HC:

"The Geneva Concention does not apply to this campaign. The enemy is sub-humans, and should be treated as such.... The normal orders regarding abuse, violence does not apply to neither POW's nor civilians...."
Source: BBC - The World at War.

This resulted in 17 million dead Soviet civilians! In this light it is no wonder that the partisans retaliated in the same way. They wanted revenge, and they had nothing to loose.

And to them, the Finns where nothing but the allies of Germany, and therefore only harvested storm, where they had sowed wind. This, of course, is wrong, which is easy to see with 60 years between them and me, and no personal involment on my part. But try and explain that to somebody who has been raped, seen his or her village burned down, seen family-members shot without trial... I see only different shades of grey. But for the those partisans the world was black and white.

Regards --- Lars

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 30 Apr 2003 18:29

Lars EP wrote: But... German troops, SS and Werhmach both, where the only ones who had a "carte blanche" to do whatever they pleased. This is explicitly expressed in the orders to von Rundtsteds from German HC:

"The Geneva Concention does not apply to this campaign.
I wonder if any partisan had ever even heard of the Geneve Convention.
Lars EP wrote:And to them, the Finns where nothing but the allies of Germany, and therefore only harvested storm, where they had sowed wind. This, of course, is wrong, which is easy to see with 60 years between them and me, and no personal involment on my part. But try and explain that to somebody who has been raped, seen his or her village burned down, seen family-members shot without trial... I see only different shades of grey. But for the those partisans the world was black and white.

Regards --- Lars
Please name one partisan at our front who had that kind of experiences here, you mentioned. They were the partisans here who "raped, burned down villages and shot civilians without trial". That´s why it´s so very hard for us Finns to see the different colours at the partisans.
Dark black is the only we see.

Regards, Juha

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Post by Mark V » 30 Apr 2003 19:19

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Lars EP wrote: But... German troops, SS and Werhmach both, where the only ones who had a "carte blanche" to do whatever they pleased. This is explicitly expressed in the orders to von Rundtsteds from German HC:

"The Geneva Concention does not apply to this campaign.
I wonder if any partisan had ever even heard of the Geneve Convention.

Please name one partisan at our front who had that kind of experiences here, you mentioned. They were the partisans here who "raped, burned down villages and shot civilians without trial". That´s why it´s so very hard for us Finns to see the different colours at the partisans.
Dark black is the only we see.
I don't know had they heard about it. But surely they weren't under protection of it. Partisan troops were organized units, but as they didn't have uniform, or any clear identification who they were - they were unlawfull combatants - or fashionable term in these days - paramilitaries...

Shot when sighted - and they all 100% deserved that fate if they were in Finnish soil...

And like Juha pointed out. Show some evidence of Finnish acting like that in behind Soviet lines - there is none. Finns also operated behind enemy lines - but these were reconnaissance patrols, or attacks against true garrisons (also some partisan barracks) - not "murder and rape squads" like many partisan operations were - and Finns never lowered themselves by eating their own comrades in patrols behind enemy lines as some sources claim Soviet Partisan Brigade did in their totally unsuccessfull and doomed penetration behind Finnish lines in 1942...

Mark V

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 30 Apr 2003 19:36

Mark V wrote: Finns never lowered themselves by eating their own comrades in patrols behind enemy lines...
Mark V
...or dumping their patrolmen into lakes when being hunted down.

Regards, Juha

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Post by Mark V » 30 Apr 2003 20:00

Juha Tompuri wrote:
...or dumping their patrolmen into lakes when being hunted down.


Regards, Juha
Yeah.

Finn patrols carried their own wounded to home even from tens or hundreds kilometres behind the lines - regardless of risks to patrol survivability involved. There is a saying here that is still strong today: "Kaveria ei jätetä" - You don't abandon your comrade, ever.

There is many examples where even dead patrolmens bodies were carried or pulled with "ahkio" to home - with tremendeous physical stress to his comrades. But it was just natural *** and the knowledge that what ever is possible (or even impossible) would be done to save every wounded comrade surely had huge effect on fighting morale of every men. And not just long range patrols - same mentality was predominant all through Finnish Army.

There is also one example where another patrol, large and well armed (joint Finn-German) was arranged just to rescue a wounded Finn patrol leader which was left behind, by his command authority and his own decision to save the patrols itself. Rescue operation was successfull.

I guess there was a bit difference on value of human life in Finland and in Soviet Union.

Mark V


*** Finnish Army buried it's dead in homeland. Heroes were transported to their home community - where they had the burial they deserved. These Hero Cemetaries (in honour place of any community cemetary) are forever well taken care of - fresh flowers and following generations visiting the the honour place of their forefathers.
Last edited by Mark V on 30 Apr 2003 20:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 30 Apr 2003 20:31

Mark V wrote: I guess there was a bit difference on value of human life in Finland and in Soviet Union.
Mark V
Guess what.
I think you guessed wrong.
I guess the difference was more than "a bit"

Regards, Juha

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Post by Mark V » 30 Apr 2003 20:48

Juha Tompuri wrote:I think you guessed wrong.
I guess the difference was more than "a bit"
You are right. I just tried to be somewhat polite... :)

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 30 Apr 2003 21:09

Mark V,

I do appreciate what you have written. I just wish more people here ( including me) could be as polite as you have been.

Regards, Juha

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Post by Lars EP » 01 May 2003 16:25

Well.....

I stand corrected. It is clear from the non-biased and objective point of wiew you guys put forward, that all Finnish soldiers where heroes while all Soviet partisans where murderes, thiefs, rapists, cannibals... scum of the earth.

I rest my case..... 8O :roll: :?

Regards --- Lars

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Post by Juha Hujanen » 01 May 2003 18:32

Lars Soviet partisans do have a bad name in Finland and the reason for that is that they DID commind numerous ATROCITIES,MURDERED CIVILIANS.

Their actions in military point of a view were almost non-existent.They rarely choose to fight when faced armed men of Finnish army but were more eagerly when they did encounter weaponless civilians.When they returned to their bases,they reported of fights against military targets with great casualties to enemy.For example 4.7.43 partisan unit called "Bolsheviks of Northern" claimed an attack against rest place of German officers in Laanila in Inari Lapland.They claimed 2 German cars destroyed,37 Germans KIA and destruction of officers rest house.In reality they attacked against Finnish civilian mailcar and a house were civilians in roadworking duties were housed.Brave partisans killed 6 and wounted 15 civilians who did not make resistance.

In Seitajärvi during summer 44 partisans burned down an village and took civilian population with them.Later 11 of them were found butchered in a row in forest.They were shot,bayoned and clubbed with riffle buts to death.9 years old girl was found alive, even with she had bayoned wound.

In summer 43 partisan unit commanded by Colonel Zurih attacked against Viiangi village.13 civiians were killed.Little later when survivours were preparing for funeral of killed partisans striked again and killed 20 and wounted others.

Shall i continue?.There is plenty more of cases of partisan atrocities against civilians.Of course there is cases were Finnish long-distance recon patrols failed to take prisoners of Russian soldiers they encountered but these are isolated cases and against Russian military personel.If you posses info about Finnish atrocities against Soviet civilians,please share them with us.
Soviet partisans waged a terror campaign against civilian population to create panic and to lower morale of Finnish population.They made an habit to attack against civilian targets and were ordered to continue such tactics.
After the war Germans who did commid such atrocities were tried in court but Soviet partisans still wear proudly their medals,awarded for their murders.I have seen few interwiews of former partisans and they still saw their actions as legimite acts of war.We don't share their point of view.

It's impossible for me of my countrymen to regard Soviet partisans who operated against Finnish civilians as nothing more than murderers,thiefs and yes,scum of the earth.That's because they do not deserve more glorious title.

Regards/Juha

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Post by Lars EP » 02 May 2003 15:36

Juha..

My point is, and still stands, in war there is no "good" and "evil". As you point out, ex-partisans are still proudly wearing their medals. So are ex-members of the British Bomber-command and the American 8. Airforce. I doubt survivors of the terror-bombings of Dresden and Hamburg thinks they deserve them. But sir Arthur Harris to his death-day held on to his belief that they where doing the right thing.

"they say a country never can be bombed into sub-mission. Well, I say, it has never been tried, and we shall see."

-sir Arthur Harris.

Stalin, just like Hitler and Churchill and Roosewelt, was fighting a war against the civilian population as well as the armed forces of their enemies. Do you want me to say that is wrong? Fine, that is very wrong! But everybody did it, and it is impossible to say who started. War is a dirty business, and it always brings out the worst in Man-kind.

Regards --- Lars

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 02 May 2003 23:11

Lars EP wrote: My point is, and still stands, in war there is no "good" and "evil".
Killing civilians intentionally is evil. With bayonets or bombs, the same.
Lars EP wrote:Stalin, just like Hitler and Churchill and Roosewelt, was fighting a war against the civilian population as well as the armed forces of their enemies. Do you want me to say that is wrong? Fine, that is very wrong! But everybody did it
Not everybody.
Lars EP wrote: it is impossible to say who started.
Irrelevant, crime is a crime no matter who commits it first.

Regards, Juha

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Post by Hanski » 03 May 2003 13:32

Lars EP wrote:
My point is, and still stands, in war there is no "good" and "evil". As you point out, ex-partisans are still proudly wearing their medals. So are ex-members of the British Bomber-command and the American 8. Airforce. I doubt survivors of the terror-bombings of Dresden and Hamburg thinks they deserve them. But sir Arthur Harris to his death-day held on to his belief that they where doing the right thing.

Regards --- Lars
Lars, I agree: war is aggressive and destructive business in itself. But there are both legal and illegal ways of waging war, if we look at it from the viewpoint of International Law. This legislation regarding commonly agreed rules of war has been agreed upon for humanitarian reasons with the thought of avoiding unnecessary brutality in mind, and those who consciously break the laws of warfare are considered as war criminals.

Unfortunately, it is often the case that war criminals on the victorious side escape trial and punishment, and may even be celebrated as heroes, while those on the lost side and maybe some innocent suspects as well are punished strictly.

It is also a legal problem who are responsible for terror-bombings. There is the military chain of command, but the highest and ultimate decision making authority in strategic policies may ultimately lie with the civilian leaders, who give orders to the military to execute. The British Prime Minister in the case of the terror-bombings of Dresden and Hamburg, and the President of the U.S.A. in the case of Hiroshima and Nagasaki should be considered responsible in my opinion. Unfortunately, no tribunal has ever given a verdict whether these bombings fulfil the criteria of war crimes, because they were committed by the Allies.

We don't need to portray either side as saints or devils in the Finno-Soviet wars, but still there is a striking difference if one looks at the question which side adhered to the International Laws of warfare. And like the gentlemen above have stated, the so-called Partisans had one of the worst track records in this respect in their raids to Finnish territory. War crimes in the disguise of civilian clothing and outcomes of military battles between the combatants wearing their respective uniforms are legally and ethically two entirely separate matters.

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