Leibstandarte divisional insignia history?

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kalimist
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Leibstandarte divisional insignia history?

Post by kalimist » 09 Jan 2008 13:28

Can anybody help me? Need the history of the divisional insignia to LSSAH..

Ian Hulley
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Post by Ian Hulley » 09 Jan 2008 14:05

Try doing a Google/Yahoo search, if ever there's an SS unit that was well photographed it's the 'LAH'.

Ian

schutzearsch
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Post by schutzearsch » 09 Jan 2008 14:06

Image

The Insignia was a Dietrich which is the German word for lock pick Dietrich was the Name of the first Division Commander Josef "Sepp" Dietrich.

The First 3 Insignias where used during the earlier stages of the War. The 5 Insignia was used after Dietrich was awarded with the Eichenlaub to the Ritterkreuz (Knights Cross) about the Insignia between the 3rd and the 5th iam not sure maybe this is wrong cause other soruces (f.e. Panzer Colours say SS-LAH was using 1 vertical bar and on horizontally bar i make researches about this in any case it was used at Kursk for reasons of hiding the units true identity and the number of units took fighting in this offensive. 1 SS and 1 Wehrmacht Panzerdivision where using the same insignias at Kursk it where SS-LAH SS-Reich SS-Totenkopf and 6 7 and i think 19 Panzerdivision.

Hope this is helpfull, if you have fruther questions just ask.
Last edited by schutzearsch on 09 Jan 2008 15:13, edited 1 time in total.

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hucks216
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Post by hucks216 » 09 Jan 2008 14:06

I believe the divisional symbol of the key was introduced as it referred to their unit commander Sepp Dietrich, with it being a play on words with his surname meaning something along the lines of someone (or something) that can undo any lock.

schutzearsch
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Post by schutzearsch » 09 Jan 2008 19:33

Ok i found out that both Insignia are right.

At Operation Citadel SS-LAH vehicles had both Markings the 1 horizontal bar with 2 vertical bars and 1 vertical bar half the height of the other two. And (maybe after 11.7.1943) SS-LAH had one horizontal bar and one vertical bar.

On the older field grey painted vehicles these bars where white on the newer dark yellow painted they where black.

Accorindg to Panzer Colors SS-LAH Insignia over the War where alway white altough it when it was a Panzer Division by Name (usually Division Markings for Panzer Divisions where yellow, Panzergrenadier Divisions where white)

Ian Hulley
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Post by Ian Hulley » 09 Jan 2008 21:06

Wrong information !!!

The 'Das Reich' used a symbol similar to that shown 4th in schutzearch's post. The LSSAH always used the 'skeleton key' or Dietrich as it's tactical symbol.

Ian.

schutzearsch
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Post by schutzearsch » 09 Jan 2008 21:53

@Ian

SS-Reich used one horizontal bar with two vertical bars.
Otherwise they used a Wolfsangel as their Insignia.

Panzer Colors writes about this

"During the great German summer offensive against the Russian salient at Kursk , the mrakings of a number of German Panzer Divisions were changed in an attempt to deceive the Russians as to how many Divisions the Germans had, and the true identity of these units. The three SS Panzergrenadier Divisions that fought in the epic Kursk battle all received new insignia, based on the numerical designation of the Division. The signs consisted of a horizontal bar with one, two or three vertical bars above. 1. SS PzGren. Dic. LAH used on vertical bar, 2. SS PzGren. Div. Das Reich used two bars, and 3. SS PzGren. Div. Totenkopf used three vertical bars. On some vehicles the horizontal bar was omitted leaving only the vertical bars. Most of these signs where painted in white, but a number of vehicles in the new Dark Yellow color scheme had the Markings in Black."


and on "Peter Schmitz/Klaus Werner Thies, Die Truppenkennzeichen der Verbände und Einheiten der Deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS und ihre Einsätze im Zweiten Weltkrieg 1939 – 1945, Band 2, S. 506:" (page 506)

Is explained that SS-LAH used both of these insignia at the first stage the one with one horizintal two vertical and one shroter vertical bar and later one horizontal with one vertical bar.

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stoveb
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LAH Markings

Post by stoveb » 13 Jan 2008 12:58

Hi there,

Much has been written about this over the years, and a lot of it not well-informed. The key symbol was not initially because of the association with the commander Sepp Dietrich, but for the reason stated below, from the Lehmann history on the unit. It may be that Trabandt also had Sepp in mind at the time but this is not clear.

Furthermore, I have never seen a LAH Kursk marking, and in fact the only LAH unit marking I have seen at this time was a 'Dietrich' on a BMW R75 of the Aufklärungabteilung, which presumably had not been removed as ordered. I would like to see an LAH Kursk marking, but I do not believe they ever used them. Please correct me with photo evidence if you can!

Cheers
Steve


2.6.1940: the rest continued. Some Kompanien used the day to swim in the English Channel. It was during these days that the Leibstandarte insignia, the “Dietrich” was invented. Walter Krueger relates;


“During the advance in the West in 1940, I saw for the first time Regimental insignia on the vehicles of other units in many different forms, some of them ‘snappy’, some of them less inventive. It made good sense, one knew who belonged to whom and it greatly facilitated orientation, especially for us signal communications men. We needed one, too! I thought about what could be done; it had to be something that the others did not have, something that had some connection to our Bataillon. Our Bataillon Commander, Wilhelm Trabandt, wore the Baltenkreuz (Baltic Cross) from the First World War on his battle uniform. This was really something. That was easy to stencil and, as far as I had seen, was not being used in a similar form by any other units. No sooner said than done! We were camped near the Cap Gris Nez on the Channel coast and were keeping an eye on England with the telescope. The first design was put down on paper and brought to Trabandt for his permission to use it. “No, old chap, I won’t hand over my personal decoration! Give me a pencil” And he drew a ‘Dietrich’ for me.
I: “A ‘Dietrich’?”
Trabandt: “You bet a ‘Dietrich’. The III Bataillon, the ‘Dietrich’ of the Regiment! The opening of the Prosna section in Poland, the opening of the Ijssel position near Zutphen! (Whether he was thinking of Sepp Dietrich I don’t know; nothing was said of him in any case.)
We thought of that insignia at first only for the III Bataillon; we had no idea at the time it would become so popular.
We made a stencil from celluloid foil from my map-mounting board and raced into Marquise, a little town nearby, to dig up some white paint! Everything came off swimmingly. The ‘Dietrich’ looked wonderful on a rough-hewn door, and we took it to the commander. Beside him on the grass lay Obersturmführer Martin Kohlroser, commander of the I Bataillon, and when I displayed our artistic product, they were pleased.
Kohlroser: “Great, Wilhelm! You make the insignia in yellow paint, and I’ll make it in white, and we’ll have Bataillon colours!” Later the shield was added around the Dietrich, and in time, when Sepp received the oak leaf cluster, that emblem was added to the design”.

(Leh1 pg 152)

kalimist
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Re: Leibstandarte divisional insignia history?

Post by kalimist » 30 Nov 2010 12:55

Very late reply from me here,sorry for that,but Thanks a lot for the information guys. Very helpfull:)

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