Why did German uniforms look so good?
Why did German uniforms look so good?
When I was a little boy and watched Hollywood movies, despite I had almost zero understanding of world affrairs and history (hey I was maybe only 10 years old), I always knew how to recognize Germans (guys in better looking uniforms and steelhelmets) were the bad guys and whoever they were fighting (played by guys in poorer looking uniforms) were the good guys. In my young mind I wondered why did the knights in shining armor(American soliders) always stood sloutched, had a chewing gum in their mouths, unshaven and had their helmet straps unhooked.....The British had helmets looked like a salad bowl....and the Russians looked like bandits who got their uniforms from the Salvation Army donation bins.....The bad guys in the movies (Germans) on the other hand, always stood up straight, tall, and wore very smart looking uniform which was always clean and pressed.
As I'm much older now and understand a lot more about the war and the atrocities associated with it, German uniforms are still to my mind, so much better looking than those of other armies'.
I was wondering if somebody share similar impressions and can share their knowledge of the design history of German uniforms.
I know that Hugo Boss designed the all black SS uniform (no wonder) but I was wondering if Hugo Boss also designed uniforms for the Heer and Waffen SS. Does anyody know?
As I'm much older now and understand a lot more about the war and the atrocities associated with it, German uniforms are still to my mind, so much better looking than those of other armies'.
I was wondering if somebody share similar impressions and can share their knowledge of the design history of German uniforms.
I know that Hugo Boss designed the all black SS uniform (no wonder) but I was wondering if Hugo Boss also designed uniforms for the Heer and Waffen SS. Does anyody know?
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Re: Why did German uniforms look so good?
The pre/early war German uniforms owed much to history and tradition .... as the war progressed however they copied much from the Allied combat dress ..... U-Boat crews wore captured British denim battledress and the 'M44' uniform is a battledress stylee.
Ian
Ian
Re: Why did German uniforms look so good?
I wonder if you realise just how many unspoken assumptions are built into your query.bobbyhill wrote:When I was a little boy and watched Hollywood movies […] Germans (guys in better looking uniforms and steelhelmets) […] (American soliders) always stood sloutched, had a chewing gum in their mouths, unshaven and had their helmet straps unhooked.....The British had helmets looked like a salad bowl....and the Russians looked like bandits who got their uniforms from the Salvation Army donation bins.....The bad guys in the movies (Germans) on the other hand, always stood up straight, tall, and wore very smart looking uniform which was always clean and pressed. […]
First, you assume that your recollection (the Germans "always stood up straight", etc) is an accurate representation of those movies you saw. But I could provide quite a few contrary Hollywood examples (eg, Longest Day, Bridge at Remagen). Which suggests that your recollection is selective (it always is), and only you can explain why it selected what it did.
Second, you assume that the Hollywood image of "the Germans" was always the same. But if you look at it chronologically, say, from Casablanca to Saving Private Ryan, I think you'll discover a great deal of change.
Third, you assume that the Hollywood representation of the "better looking uniforms" is an accurate reflection of reality. Are they; or, better yet, is Hollywood ever?
(As an aside, I think you might benefit from reading Sontag's seminal essay, "Fascinating Fascism".)
Notwithstanding all of the above, you certainly have predecessors. Indeed, some of them even ventured to draw larger conclusions from relative levels of military dress smartness, eg, James and Beaumont (1971). As this strictly scientific and amply documented paper -- which offers a clear answer to your question -- is not as widely known as it deserves to be, I'll quote it at length:
Source:[…] Pierre d'Harcourt's [commented] on the American army liberating German concentration camps in 1945.Relative lack of concern for appearance is not a recent thing among the Americans. A Mexican official observed, following the capture of Mexico City in 1847, that American troops looked "more like brigands than soldiers". […]The SS marched out of Buchenwald as though rehearsing for a victory parade on the Wilhelmstrasse. The Americans came in looking like tramps. They seemed to wear any garment that took their fancy… It was impossible to distinguish officers from men.
There are also fascinating parallels in great historic surrender scenes such as Ulysses S. Grant taking the Confederate sword at Appomattox. Grant appears in a disheveled private's uniform; Lee is dressed in his finest uniform, immaculately groomed. Then, there is MacArthur taking the Japanese surrender on the bridge of the battleship Missouri. MacArthur was the very personification of neatness and military precision at that scene, but he came to the ceremonies tie-less, open-collared, in the very minimum uniform, without decorations. The enemy officers and officials appeared meticulously dressed in full uniform, top hats, cutaway coats, with aiguellettes, bejewelled orders, sashes and swords.
Or consider the dress of the great figures of World War II. There is the baroque splendor of Hermann Göring, the pompous ornamentation of Benito Mussolini, the grim ostentation of Nazi party officials. On the other hand, there is the simple, even drab, appearance of Churchill in his pea jacket, Stalin's starkly simple tunic, Montgomery of Alamein, almost a Grant in appearance—admittedly, as a teetotaler, not in his habits.
There is a curious, disturbingly regular, pattern apparent here. In war, victory goes to the side whose leaders appear the least prepossessing. The handsome dressers lose. This is particularly obvious for military field dress.
[There follows a table with data from conflicts from the English Civil War to Algeria, and a discussion of the dressiness of participants in other conflicts, including Vietnam.]
We propose to explain this impressive corpus of data by placing the law of military plumage within the context of more general laws applying to animal life, in particular the so-called "niche theory" of the ecologists. Thus our analysis can be brought suitably into line with the rigours of present day thought in the behavioral sciences.
Niche theory says, essentially, that when an environment is stable, when food is abundant, when the sun is warm and life is good, there is time and opportunity both to specialize and to indulge the impulse to the rococo that lies at the very heart of organic evolution. Bird life provides excellent examples. The "uniforms" with which such tropical species as the quetzal dress themselves can become extremely elaborate, involving colorful tunics, erectile ruffs, wattles, plumes and dazzling display rituals. In the munificient [sic] environment of the tropics such drawing-room refinements have a very real function, often spelling the difference between success and disgrace in the contest for mates. Such fops as the male mandarin duck, a singular case of Göring-like taste in plumage, are evidently the product of just this way of life.
[…]
Among the birds, an uncertain environment calls for generalist talents, and the refinements of brilliant dress are irrelevant and even suicidal. Hence as we move from the benign environment of the tropics to the harsh and uncertain north, a wide food spectrum—which is to say, indiscriminate taste—become the hallmark of survival. That is why, too, as we move north we encounter […] increasing proportions of such drab and foxy generalists as starling, sparrow and crow.
It is not hard to see that the same conditions hold for warfare. Armed conflict is a stressful environment and vanity often goeth before the fall. The French infantry, for instance, did not surrender their red pantaloons until 1915, well into the era of the machine gun. In the Battles of the Frontier, thousands of this colourful species were killed in a single day. Natural selection, of course, soon produced a new French uniform of field gray, a color more suitable to the "crypticity requirements" (as an ecologist would put it) of living on one's belly in the mud.
Vanity in commanders, to be sure, is simply another form of display habits. And it can be a portentous sign in the affairs of a great army or navy. Xerxes, it will be recalled, had his splendid sedan chair taken to the top of a hill at Salamis, and there set upon splendid carpets—we may assume, with fruit-basket at hand—that he might watch the defeat of the Greeks in a manner befitting a confident commander. We are told that soon thereafter he was observed "in deepest anguish".
The same natural law holds for the very uncertain, usually hostile, environment of international politics. The coxcomb and dandy do not long survive in such a setting. Nor are all those preening habits of display associated with a high diplomacy suited to the coarse struggle for power between great states. It follows, then, that the appearance of the drab and foxy performer among the ranks of one's political or military opponents is an ominous sign.
The reasons are clear. The messianic spirit of the True Believer, is, after all, a spare system of beliefs, a lethal set of over-simplifications made the more deadly by the reformer's abstemious self-denial of common sense and compassion. It is not accidental, therefore, that the revolutionary's garb is puritanical, a symbol of renunciation of the old order. There is Mao Tse Tung's boiler suit. Ho Chi Minh's simple jacket. Fidel Castro's messy fatigues*. It is the outlook which such renunciation garb represents that gives staying power to the Long March, single purpose to the revolution, and appeals so seductively to the jaded mentality of bourgeois intellectuals. That it periodically litters the planet with corpses would appear to be an unfortunate side effect of the processes of natural selection involved. […]
[…]
*In this case, the revolutionary, in final act of renunciation, also forswears use of the razor and all its pomps. We are not sure, at this juncture of our investigations, just what this form of renunciation implies sociologically. For instance, in Californian culture the oddly sensate puritanism of the bearded acid-head New Left would not necessarily appear to be a sign of impending social revitalization.
- James, BJ; Beaumont, RA (1971) The Law of Military Plumage (Dressed Up to Kill). Transition [Magazine] 39: 24–27.
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Re: Why did German uniforms look so good?
Patzinak.....**** me. Don't think that was quite the kind of answer the guy was looking for. Maybe you've read into it more than the guy actually meant.
For me the bad guys always had the better looking gear. The Stalhelm, far more iconic as a WWII item than any other helmet. Uniforms that looked stylish rather than itchy and uncomfortable. The Americans looked cool but not as smart, the Brits a little on the boring side(unless you were airbourne) and the poor Russians didn't really have any choice. Film makers were probably just following the usual sterotypes, stereotypes they probably had a hand in creating.
Its proabaly why for many years model kit manufacturers produced far more Axis related products than Allied and why original German militaria fetches better prices than Allied artifacts. They are simply more desirable.
As a re-eanctor I always have difficulty in explaining why I choose to re-enact the Germans but it never really would have been any one else.
The MP40, MG34 , MG42 as a child looked cool
Tiger or Sherman. Panther or T34.....Hmmmmmm
You can always count on the Germans to produce something that just looks nice (BMW & Mercedes) Problem is they usually cost to much to buy and to look after. Hence if it came down to it the Tiger or Panther might be one hell of a beast but the Allied counterparts had it just right. Might not look as nice but you can knock them out in the tens of thousands.
For me the bad guys always had the better looking gear. The Stalhelm, far more iconic as a WWII item than any other helmet. Uniforms that looked stylish rather than itchy and uncomfortable. The Americans looked cool but not as smart, the Brits a little on the boring side(unless you were airbourne) and the poor Russians didn't really have any choice. Film makers were probably just following the usual sterotypes, stereotypes they probably had a hand in creating.
Its proabaly why for many years model kit manufacturers produced far more Axis related products than Allied and why original German militaria fetches better prices than Allied artifacts. They are simply more desirable.
As a re-eanctor I always have difficulty in explaining why I choose to re-enact the Germans but it never really would have been any one else.
The MP40, MG34 , MG42 as a child looked cool
Tiger or Sherman. Panther or T34.....Hmmmmmm
You can always count on the Germans to produce something that just looks nice (BMW & Mercedes) Problem is they usually cost to much to buy and to look after. Hence if it came down to it the Tiger or Panther might be one hell of a beast but the Allied counterparts had it just right. Might not look as nice but you can knock them out in the tens of thousands.
Re: Why did German uniforms look so good?
Should I use protection, darlin'?dog green 1 wrote:Patzinak.....**** me.
--Patzinak
Re: Why did German uniforms look so good?
Ah, the Sukhomlinov Law!
The 'law' that wars are lost by the side that wears snappier uniforms is, I've read somewhere, named after the Russian chief of general staff and minister of war (until 1915) Vladimir Sukhomlinov. He wore uniforms with gold braid up to his elbows and is often held responsible for the Russian unpreparedness for war in 1914. Barbara Tuchman gives a thoroughly negative view of Sukhomlinov in her Guns of August, but it seems that recent scholarship is more charitable towards him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhomlinov
The 'law' that wars are lost by the side that wears snappier uniforms is, I've read somewhere, named after the Russian chief of general staff and minister of war (until 1915) Vladimir Sukhomlinov. He wore uniforms with gold braid up to his elbows and is often held responsible for the Russian unpreparedness for war in 1914. Barbara Tuchman gives a thoroughly negative view of Sukhomlinov in her Guns of August, but it seems that recent scholarship is more charitable towards him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhomlinov
Re: Why did German uniforms look so good?
If it helps any, I too always liked the appearance of the stereotypical German soldier in the movies. The uniforms seemed to me to be just the right combination of utilitarian and flashy, whereas US uniforms just looked dull. That's changed some, over the years, as I've come to appreciate the aesthetics of all uniforms, but as a child I was in the same boat. I knew nothing of real war then, and I know nothing of it now. As a layperson, though, I'd say quite a few clueless people shared the opinion.
It probably has to do a lot with stereotypes, such as the German need for precision and discipline, just as the stereotypical "evil" of the Nazis bled over to the average german soldier, and led (at least in my mind) to the preference of german soldiers for zombies, monsters, and such in movies and books.
It's just what hollywood likes to portray and, knowing no better, what naive kids like us believed.
It probably has to do a lot with stereotypes, such as the German need for precision and discipline, just as the stereotypical "evil" of the Nazis bled over to the average german soldier, and led (at least in my mind) to the preference of german soldiers for zombies, monsters, and such in movies and books.
It's just what hollywood likes to portray and, knowing no better, what naive kids like us believed.
Re: Why did German uniforms look so good?
And it goes into the Hollywood stereotypes that any German in a black uniform was in the Gestapo and every German was a Nazi. Look at TV shows like Hogan's Heros and movies like Where Eagles Dare... the Gestapo men are always dressed in the black uniforms. Oh, I was watching a documentary on WWII (was one of the UNSOLVED MYSTERIES on Killing Hitler) and they had an SS (Gestapo) man typing a report. This guy was wearing the runic collar tab and a breast eagle! One of their perceptions was if Hitler had been killed on 20 July 1944, the war would have all of a sudden just ended!
Luft300
Luft300
Re: Why did German uniforms look so good?
take of the runes from a ss jacket and it looks like a railway worker´s jacket. just the symbols of power ( mystified through movies and tv) make it look smart!
BTW: Many german soldiers (and the german civilians) were amazed to see the multitude and quality of the garments issued and worn by american GIs (wind breakers, overcoats etc).
BTW: Many german soldiers (and the german civilians) were amazed to see the multitude and quality of the garments issued and worn by american GIs (wind breakers, overcoats etc).
Re: Why did German uniforms look so good?
Well, for my $0.02
Uniforms reflect the society that produces them.
The German society of WWII was rigid, inordinately awed by authority and very cast-conscious. Soldiers held a highly respected position in society and were supposed to be the heirs of a long martial history. Their uniforms were a reflection of this. Standard Army uniforms are rather formal and old-fashioned (closed neck collar) as a result. The new and ‘technical’ branches like the panzerwaffe and Luftwaffe used smart, modern looking uniforms (open neck collars) to show they were far more modern than the ‘old’ army.
The SS needed to contrast itself with the army and attract young men from the reactionary lure of the Heer. So it needed attractive, modern uniforms as well to show they embodied the future and were a smart choice for young men disenfranchised from the closed ranks of the Heer.
American uniforms (the OD types, not the WWI type uniform) reflected a society that saw war as business. The field uniforms were meant to be as practical as possible, much like work clothes are supposed to be and reflected contemporary civilian dress in many ways.
British battledress uniforms also reflect the role of the British army and its financial state. Soldiers were not particularly highly regarded in society and generally seen as belonging to the servant class. The army was also not supposed to cost very much. Hence, little money and a requirement for an utilitarian outfit. The result was the baggy, drab battledress of rather poor quality which could have served a factory worker just as well.
Beyond this, armies had long recognized the value of smart uniforms and distinguishing items in morale issues and the fostering of esprit de corps.
Each had their own ways of engendering this within the framework of their uniforms.
The Germans issued a bewildering variety of combat medals and awards, campaign decorations and cuff titles.
The British allowed each regiment a lot of leeway in caps, badges and regimental traditions.
The Americans issued decorations for drawing breath and anything more strenuous was rewarded by steadily more prestigious decorations (the infamous salad bar).
Uniforms reflect the society that produces them.
The German society of WWII was rigid, inordinately awed by authority and very cast-conscious. Soldiers held a highly respected position in society and were supposed to be the heirs of a long martial history. Their uniforms were a reflection of this. Standard Army uniforms are rather formal and old-fashioned (closed neck collar) as a result. The new and ‘technical’ branches like the panzerwaffe and Luftwaffe used smart, modern looking uniforms (open neck collars) to show they were far more modern than the ‘old’ army.
The SS needed to contrast itself with the army and attract young men from the reactionary lure of the Heer. So it needed attractive, modern uniforms as well to show they embodied the future and were a smart choice for young men disenfranchised from the closed ranks of the Heer.
American uniforms (the OD types, not the WWI type uniform) reflected a society that saw war as business. The field uniforms were meant to be as practical as possible, much like work clothes are supposed to be and reflected contemporary civilian dress in many ways.
British battledress uniforms also reflect the role of the British army and its financial state. Soldiers were not particularly highly regarded in society and generally seen as belonging to the servant class. The army was also not supposed to cost very much. Hence, little money and a requirement for an utilitarian outfit. The result was the baggy, drab battledress of rather poor quality which could have served a factory worker just as well.
Beyond this, armies had long recognized the value of smart uniforms and distinguishing items in morale issues and the fostering of esprit de corps.
Each had their own ways of engendering this within the framework of their uniforms.
The Germans issued a bewildering variety of combat medals and awards, campaign decorations and cuff titles.
The British allowed each regiment a lot of leeway in caps, badges and regimental traditions.
The Americans issued decorations for drawing breath and anything more strenuous was rewarded by steadily more prestigious decorations (the infamous salad bar).
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Re: Why did German uniforms look so good?
Great stuff ranoncles. Very intersting points you make.
Re: Why did German uniforms look so good?
Anybody knows where i can buy SS uniforms?
I have found some sites but the prices are very high.
Thank you!
I have found some sites but the prices are very high.
Thank you!
Re: Why did German uniforms look so good?
mike if you are looking for an original SS uniform it isn't going to be cheap expect to pay alot for one. If you are talking repro well that too will cost you. you will get what you pay for. You go cheap it will look cheap. If you come across an original SS uniform at a low price it is a good bet it is a repro. Even re-badged original SS tunics are very expensive
- Reich Ruin
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Re: Why did German uniforms look so good?
I believe most societies have a keen fantasy of power surrounding persons in arms. I too found the German regalia of the Second World War unique from their counterparts, even "romantic". Not sexually but in an aesthetic sense, harking back to a pre-modern era. Still I have become interested in all military regalia, past and present but I admit that the flaunting nature of totalitarian armies (Nazi Germany, USSR, Roman Empire, etc) arouses a sense of power in my mind. I believe they where designed to do just this.
There is a saying that goes: "There is no accounting for taste". However I am puzzled as to why I and others find such regalia fascinating. Reading the essay by Susan Sontag that Patzinak cited, I can't help but think that whatever the reason, that it is not healthy and falls into the psychological trap that authoritarian propaganda tries to invoke, a mindless pride and romanticism that inflames human passions to be used and manipulated.
Of course maybe Im being cynical... I guess I just feel a bit guilty about being impressed by the military uniform designed by a despicable, violent regime. Thoughts?
There is a saying that goes: "There is no accounting for taste". However I am puzzled as to why I and others find such regalia fascinating. Reading the essay by Susan Sontag that Patzinak cited, I can't help but think that whatever the reason, that it is not healthy and falls into the psychological trap that authoritarian propaganda tries to invoke, a mindless pride and romanticism that inflames human passions to be used and manipulated.
Of course maybe Im being cynical... I guess I just feel a bit guilty about being impressed by the military uniform designed by a despicable, violent regime. Thoughts?
- mike peters
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Re: Why did German uniforms look so good?
We’ve always been interested in “The Enemy” , who they were , what they wore , the equipment they used and how it all compared to ours…look at the Trophy Trains of WW1 and the Infantry Journal series printed during WW2, we even had Posters explaining the various German Uniforms and Rank system.
I wouldn’t say Collectors are necessarily “fascinated” by the TR …I always found that collecting a wide spectrum of TR “regalia” afforded more of an insight into how that system worked and the mindset involved...a better "feel" for History.
About 10 years ago I had a WW2 Veteran ask to see my Collection …he served with a Tank Destroyer Unit and had seen quite a bit of action right up until the end of the War. As soon as he walked in my room and saw the Uniforms …he paused, pointed to a specific Tunic and said ..” Every time I think of those guys it still bothers me ..we had no idea who they were, we thought they were some sort of Nazi National Guard . We’d come into an area and see them working and open up on then with our 50’s. Eventually we were told not to shoot at them because they were only Railroad Conductors and workers . We had no idea …there were so many different Nazi Uniforms ..how could we have known ? “
Out of all the Uniforms I have setup , he was pointing to the Reichsbahn Uniform ….almost 60 years later and he still remembered THAT Uniform.
That memory stayed with him until he passed away last year.
I wouldn’t say Collectors are necessarily “fascinated” by the TR …I always found that collecting a wide spectrum of TR “regalia” afforded more of an insight into how that system worked and the mindset involved...a better "feel" for History.
About 10 years ago I had a WW2 Veteran ask to see my Collection …he served with a Tank Destroyer Unit and had seen quite a bit of action right up until the end of the War. As soon as he walked in my room and saw the Uniforms …he paused, pointed to a specific Tunic and said ..” Every time I think of those guys it still bothers me ..we had no idea who they were, we thought they were some sort of Nazi National Guard . We’d come into an area and see them working and open up on then with our 50’s. Eventually we were told not to shoot at them because they were only Railroad Conductors and workers . We had no idea …there were so many different Nazi Uniforms ..how could we have known ? “
Out of all the Uniforms I have setup , he was pointing to the Reichsbahn Uniform ….almost 60 years later and he still remembered THAT Uniform.
That memory stayed with him until he passed away last year.
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Last edited by mike peters on 12 Jun 2008, 16:21, edited 1 time in total.