diplomatic system insignia 3 Reich

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Sewer King
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Re: diplomatic system insignia 3 Reich

#16

Post by Sewer King » 16 May 2010, 20:04

Another good book about Third Reich diplomatic uniform and insignia, besides Angolia's:
below is quoted from pages 65-69:
warta wrote:Prompt, what job titles corresponds to data an insignia
CLERICAL OFFICIALS (Group IV, silver or grey thread insignia)
  • a) Ministerialamtsgehilfe
    b) Amtsgehilfe
    c) Hilfs-Amtsgehilfe
=================================
warta wrote:Prompt, what group of the payment corresponds to data an insignia and his(its) due
CHIEF OFFICIALS (Group I, gold insignia)

Group 3
  • Vortrater Legationsrat
    Gesandter ii Klasse
    Generalkonsul iII Klasse
    Botschaftsrat
-- Alan

warta
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Re: diplomatic system insignia 3 Reich

#17

Post by warta » 17 May 2010, 22:48

[quote="Sewer King"]Another good book about Third Reich diplomatic uniform and insignia, besides Angolia's:
below is quoted from pages 65-69:


Hello,Sewer King!
You me much helped.
If beside You this book?
The You, help with these page with books?


warta
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Re: diplomatic system insignia 3 Reich

#18

Post by warta » 18 May 2010, 10:22

Hello,Sewer King!
Prompt, what group of the payment corresponds to data an insignia and his(its) due
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Sewer King
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Re: diplomatic system insignia 3 Reich

#19

Post by Sewer King » 23 May 2010, 05:51

For the Foreign Office, these four would be Group III officials of Junior Executive level (silver insignia on black).
  • a) Minsterialdirektor
    b) Verwaltungsekretar
    c) Assistent
Pay grades for each number of stars, zero to four, is not given by Halcomb (page 66). But she lists those for the similar group and insignia as worn by Reich Ministry officials.

=================================

The one insignia is a Group II official of Senior Executive level (silver-wire embroidered, lesser oakwreath).

Group 1
  • a) Amtsrat, Kanzler I Klasse
    b) Amtsmann, Kanzler II Klasse
Group 2
  • a) Oberinspektor, Konsulatsekretar I Klasse
    b) Inspektor, Konsulatsekretar II Klasse
    c) Konsulatspraklikant
The complexities of Third Reich civil and diplomatic service ranks, titles, pay classes, and other distinctions (over time) might best be shown in actual tables and charts. Halcomb's book does not do that, but I don't know if Angolia's does -- or if it is difficult to do.

=================================

For all these insignia, I am curious myself about some basic things.
  • Did German diplomats ever wear any uniforms before the Third Reich? Unlike many of the Nazi Party organizations, the diplomatic corps was a long-established service. But it would not have had traditions to base these uniform or insignia traditions upon.
    • So these would have had to be made up almost in their entirety? What then did they draw upon?
    Was there any correspondence between pay classes of civil officials and diplomats?

    Did foreign diplomats ever need to know this complex system of German diplomatic ranks and titles? It seems that in diplomacy you deal with personages, key figures, and their offices and positions -- so that the German uniforms would have relatively little meaning for foreign counterparts.
-- Alan

pavel michalek
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Re: diplomatic system insignia 3 Reich

#20

Post by pavel michalek » 23 May 2010, 15:50

Sewer King wrote:Did German diplomats ever wear any uniforms before the Third Reich? Unlike many of the Nazi Party organizations, the diplomatic corps was a long-established service. But it would not have had traditions to base these uniform or insignia traditions upon.
I don´t know how about pre-1918 era, but German Foreign Ministry didn´t have any uniforms until May 1938.

Uniforms were designed by both Joachim and Annelies von Ribbentrop and Arno Breker. They consisted of double breasted dark blue• tunic with trousers or riding breeches during parades, field manoeuvres, etc. For evening parties and receptions were issued (black) dress suit style uniform with oak leaves insignia on collar and (for higher officials) on lapel. German diplomats wore peaked caps only. Daggers were worn with tunics, swords with suits. As the other ceremonial addition to uniforms were silver brocaded belts and aiguilletes (canceled in 1940 with cancellation of epaulets). Higher officials had also white coat lapels and all diplomats wore thin trouser stripes for both trousers and breeches.

• In May 1938 during Hitler´s visit of Italy had German diplomats dark blue tunics only, but in the next month were issued also field gray version of this tunic. Between September 1939 and March/April 1940 were gray uniforms worn only and in 1940 dark blue uniforms came back, though without epaulets.

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Sewer King
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Re: diplomatic system insignia 3 Reich

#21

Post by Sewer King » 25 May 2010, 05:59

Thanks Pavel.

I had thought it was Brenno von Arandt who designed the diplomatic uniforms that made their debut in 1938. Although Ribbentrop apparently chose his own Minister's insignia.
  • {Halcomb, page 41; she cites the German uniform clothing trade journal Uniformen-Markt, 1 December 1938, page 356))
It would be interesting to know what comments were made by foreign diplomats upon seeing their newly-dressed German counterparts.

I would expect that the whole idea of putting diplomats in uniform came from the following:
  • it fitted the Third Reich's idea of Einheit,
    an expectation that they were to be "political soldiers,"
    as unmistakeable notice about the New Order to long-serving career diplomats of traditional mind, and
    as a flourish for the Reich's political successes of the time.
Are there other reasons or opinions?

-- Alan

pavel michalek
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Re: diplomatic system insignia 3 Reich

#22

Post by pavel michalek » 25 May 2010, 16:35

Sewer King wrote:It would be interesting to know what comments were made by foreign diplomats upon seeing their newly-dressed German counterparts.

I would expect that the whole idea of putting diplomats in uniform came from the following:
  • it fitted the Third Reich's idea of Einheit,
    an expectation that they were to be "political soldiers,"
    as unmistakeable notice about the New Order to long-serving career diplomats of traditional mind, and
    as a flourish for the Reich's political successes of the time.
Are there other reasons or opinions?
Paul-Otto Schmidt (1899-1970), who was a translator in the German foreign ministry from 1923 to 1945, said in his memoirs, that Hitler didn´t like, when he was in civilian clothes (as he wasn´t member of NSDAP till 1943) among all uniformed officials during Mussolini´s visit in Germany (September 1937), so Schmidt had to appear in uniform from that time (he joined the SS• and probably had borrowed LW Colonel uniform by Göring). Same problem could been with other German diplomats, so German foreign ministry in 1938 issued official diplomatical uniform for its employees.

Schmidt stated, that most of German diplomats (especially those middle aged, like Schmidt himself) didn´t like to wear these uniforms, as they weren´t used to wear any sort of uniform for a long time. He also said about those who didn´t have stature for uniforms, that "they always will look like porters or some industrial cops".

I don´t know, what was reaction of foreign diplomats on German diplomatical uniforms; Italians for example during Hitler´s trip to Italy in May 1938 mistaken them as naval officers because of their ranking system. Japanese foreign minister Yosuke Matsuoka, who visited Berlin in March 1941, was noticed as he was totally confused about them.

The style of dark blue naval double breasted tunic for diplomats or government officials was also used in Italy and Croatia.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t#p1461811

warta
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Re: diplomatic system insignia 3 Reich

#23

Post by warta » 26 May 2010, 20:20

[quote="Sewer King"]For the Foreign Office, these four would be Group III officials of Junior Executive level (silver insignia on black).
  • a) Minsterialdirektor
    b) Verwaltungsekretar
    c) Assistent
Pay grades for each number of stars, zero to four, is not given by Halcomb (page 66). But she lists those for the similar group and insignia as worn by Reich Ministry officials.

Hi , Alan!

Is the Minsterialdirektor belong to this group? Maybe you have to these positions insignia. If there is please help.

GERMAN CIVIL SERVICE RANKS
1. gehilfe
2.assistent
sekretar
obersekretar
3. inspektor
oberinspektor
Amtmann
amtsrat
4. regierungsrat
oberregierungsrat
ministerialrat
ministerialdirigent
ministerialdirektor
unterstaatssekretar
staatssekretar
staatsminister
reichsminister

Best Regards, Konstantin

warta
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Re: diplomatic system insignia 3 Reich

#24

Post by warta » 26 May 2010, 20:28

Hi , Alan!
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Cartaphilus
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Re: diplomatic system insignia 3 Reich

#25

Post by Cartaphilus » 28 Jul 2011, 13:35

Hello everybody.

With the info contained in this and other posts I've made this composition with the government officials insignia during III Reich:

Image

Now, I have some questions. Maybe some partner could help me:

- Are these the four Groups or Levels in the government corp?

- The silver and golden insignia with oak leaves belong to the same ranks, or are different insignia?

- Have any forist the correspondences between each badge and its rank?


Thank you so much.

dmitry11
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Re: diplomatic system insignia 3 Reich

#26

Post by dmitry11 » 03 Jun 2022, 15:14

This is according to book of John Angolia
In the service of the reich (pages 83-93)
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