Ottoman Air units

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
Tosun Saral
Member
Posts: 3572
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 19:32
Location: Ankara/Turkey

Re: Ottoman Air units

Postby Tosun Saral » 11 Nov 2017 13:03

Souchin Max pilot Airforce 4th Sqn 12-17 to 7-18 possibly to 9th Squadron 1918 Lt Austrian Istanbul based Sqn at Yesilköy - Austrian pilot att Ottoman Airforce
Havacılık Tarihinde Türkler (Turks at Aviation History) p.229 writes that a Corporal Max Suchin graduated from Yeşilköy Training School in 1916 as a pilot. I think he was not Austrian but a Turkish Jude. On the otherhand the book Türk Hava Kuvvetleri Tarihi ( The History of Turkish Air Force) p. 179-182 dont mention his name on the list of NCO pilots during 1912-19

Steve After being an artillerist I am slowly being an air expert :)

stevebecker
Member
Posts: 986
Joined: 01 Jul 2006 03:04
Location: Australia

Re: Ottoman Air units

Postby stevebecker » 12 Nov 2017 00:39

Tosun,

Many thanks again.

I did wonder about these two men?

Hasan Fehmi Bey pilot Airforce 3rd Sqn 11-17 to PoW 10-18 The source "Havacılık Tarihinde Türkler" (Turks in Aivation History) p.vol.1,p.290 says that he is from Bursa or Maltepe/İstanbul

Hasan Fehmi Bey (Bursa) pilot Airforce 14th Sqn possibly 3-18 Sgt

Both show the same details (Bursa) arte they the same man or different?

Tosun my friend, Yes so I am I as a Cavalryman, this is a new field for me, so all Turkish soldiers no matter what arm they served in get some reconition of there service.

My chance to give back to the friends I made when attached to the Turkish Group in Bosnia during the late war there.

Cheers

S.B

Tosun Saral
Member
Posts: 3572
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 19:32
Location: Ankara/Turkey

Re: Ottoman Air units

Postby Tosun Saral » 12 Nov 2017 09:41

I was a signal officer only a 1st Lt. :)

stevebecker
Member
Posts: 986
Joined: 01 Jul 2006 03:04
Location: Australia

Re: Ottoman Air units

Postby stevebecker » 13 Nov 2017 00:54

Mates,

Just to add to the Ottoman airman of the 14th Sqn (Tayyare Boluk), these are the known German airman with the 14th Sqn;

Beltz Capt observer Airforce 14th Sqn 2-18 to Kommdr de Flieger 4th Army 3-18 1918's PoW 21-9-18 when airfield at Damascus over run
Benecke Lt observer Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Bezmi Sgt pilot Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Dickmann Lt pilot Airforce 14th Sqn
Dox Lt pilot Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Gandenberg Lt observer Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Klamberg Lt observer Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Levin Capt observer Airforce OC 14th Sqn 5-18 to 10-18 1918's
Ludeke Lt observer Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Mois Von Lt observer Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Nickel Sgt pilot Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Otto Sgt pilot Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Pawalka Sgt pilot Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Posbach Sgt pilot Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Prince de Sax Capt observer Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Rolker Sgt pilot Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Schefer Capt observer Airforce 14th Sqn
Seelig Capt pilot Airforce OC 14th Sqn 3-18 to Kommdr de Flieger 4th Army 9-18 1918's first OC 3-18
Straup Lt observer Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Vagner Lt observer Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Vereyen Sgt pilot Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Volf Lt pilot Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Wiese Lt observer Airforce 14th Sqn 1918's
Zelich Capt observer Airforce OC 14th Sqn 2-18 to 5-18 1918's also shown Capt Seelig

I sorry to say that the Ottoman airman with this Tayyare Boluk , only a few have so far been found, while I have a large number of Germans with this Sqn.

14th Sqn (Recee) - formed (7x AEG C4) 3-18 att 4th Army at Amman Palestine 5-18

S.B

Tosun Saral
Member
Posts: 3572
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 19:32
Location: Ankara/Turkey

Re: Ottoman Air units

Postby Tosun Saral » 15 Nov 2017 16:13

Ahmet Cemal Pasha Commander of 4th Arm at Sina Palestine getting information about a plane
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Tosun Saral
Member
Posts: 3572
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 19:32
Location: Ankara/Turkey

Re: Ottoman Air units

Postby Tosun Saral » 15 Nov 2017 16:17

Ahmet Cemal Pasha dining with german flyboys
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

stevebecker
Member
Posts: 986
Joined: 01 Jul 2006 03:04
Location: Australia

Re: Ottoman Air units

Postby stevebecker » 15 Nov 2017 23:43

Mates,

The mix of these Ottoman Sqns (Tayyare Boluk) of both German and Ottoman personal has always been of interest.

Here is what I found so far of the 2nd Sqn (Tayyare Boluk), which spent its service in the Mesopotamia.

While I found some, many have so far escaped me?

Known Ottoman Airmen

Cemal Bey (Ulusoy) pilot Airforce 1st Sqn to 2nd Sqn 1916 Lt
Fettah Bey pilot Airforce OC 2nd Sqn 1915/16 Capt
Mehmet Ali Bey pilot Airforce 2nd Sqn Lt to Capt
Mehmet Fazil Bey pilot Airforce 1st Sqn 1915 to 2nd Sqn & OC 3rd Sqn 10-16 to 6-17 & OC 9th Sqn 12-16 (TBC)? & 12th Sqn dates? Lt to Capt WIA 25-10-18
Sirri Bey pilot Airforce 2nd Sqn Lt
Ziya Bey pilot Airforce 2nd Sqn Lt

German Airman

Aulock Franz Von Capt pilot Airforce OC 2nd Sqn 12-15 to Kommdr de Flieger 6th Army 8-16 Mesopotamia 1915 first OC 2nd Sqn KIA 4-17 reported killed in flying accident near Mosul
Bechler Master Sgt master mechanic Airforce Flug park Mosul 1917 att 2nd Sqn Chief mech at Bagdad Mesopotamia
Becker Capt observer/photographer Airforce to 2nd Sqn 1916 1916 photogragher to Bagdad 1916 to Mosul Mesopotamia date?
Dieckhoff Lt pilot Airforce 2nd Sqn or 13th Sqn 1917 1915-17 Mesopotamia 1915
Faller Arthur Lt to Capt pilot Airforce 1st Sqn 5-15 shown Jasta 300 5-16 to OC 2nd Sqn 4-17 to OC 5th Sqn 1916? to Kommdr de Flieger 5th Army date? 1915-17 from IR 169 - Mesopotamia 1915 replaced Von Aulock after death to Izmir date? to Kommdr de Flieger 5th Army from Kettenbeil date?
Gebbard Capt pilot Airforce OC 2nd Sqn 1917 1915-17 Mesopotamia 1915 replaced Schulz
Keiper Ludwig Lt to Capt observer Airforce 1st Sqn 1915 to 2nd Sqn 1916 to Adjt Chief of Staff 1916 to Instructor San Stafano 1916 (shown CO 9 Sqn 1917) to 1918 to OC 15th Sqn 9-18 to 10-18 shown to Kommdr de Flieger 3rd Army near Bulgaria 1918 1915-18 (1894-1981) Ex 118th Res Regt to airforce 1915 later WWII Lt Gen Luftwaffe mission to Slavakia 1941-44
Runkle Lt pilot Airforce 2nd Sqn or 13th Sqn 1917 Mesopotamia 1915
Schulter Siegfreid Lt pilot Airforce 2nd Sqn Mesopotamia
Schulz Hans Capt pilot Airforce to Fokker group 12-15 to 6th Sqn 1916 to Flugpark Mosul 1916 or 2nd Sqn 1916? to OC 2nd Sqn 1917 to Kommdr de Flieger 6th Army 1918 shot down 2 enemy planes 12-15 possibly Mesopotamia 1916 replaced Faller as OC date? shot two other British planes 15-4-17 & 28-4-17 to Kommdr de Flieger 6th Army from Hattendorf

Both the 2 Sqn and 14 Sqn appear to show more Germans then Ottoman Airmen, but that could be my fault as I have not found all of them yet?

S.B

A McAuslan
Financial supporter
Posts: 32
Joined: 28 Jul 2012 10:06

Re: Ottoman Air units

Postby A McAuslan » 22 Mar 2018 17:51

Document (24).pdf
Can anyone certainly identify the Turkish officer in the attached scan? The caption claims that he is General Captain Gazi Mustafa Kemal (later Ataturk) It was taken during the first Balkan War and the smaller officer is the German/Argentinian pilot Mauricio 'Mario' Scherff. The scan is lifted from a 1958 copy of RAF Flying review and in the accompanying article Scherff claims to have piloted Ataturk on recce flights. Scherff is well documented and, in fact was used in advertisements for the DFW concern having flown one of their aircraft for 6 and a quarter hours on an operational flight. He died in 1958 and I presume the article was taken from his private papers. I have a Turkish friend who, mainly because he had never heard of this part of Ataturk's history - if it exists - doubts the authenticity. I THINK I can make out an injury to the Turkish Officers left eyebrow on serious magnification and that would very much tie in with the Ataturk story since it was only about a year earlier when he was wounded - hence Gazi - during the Italian incursion in North Africa by a falling piece of debris blown off a building by artillery. Since my Turkish friend is extremely keen to know one way or another, and I would like to know myself, we would both be extremely grateful to anyone more knowledgeable who could clear up our dilemma.
Sandy McAuslan
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

stevebecker
Member
Posts: 986
Joined: 01 Jul 2006 03:04
Location: Australia

Re: Ottoman Air units

Postby stevebecker » 23 Mar 2018 00:29

Mate,

See these details

"Auf einem Harlan-Eindecker erwarb er am Silvestertag des Jahres 1912 in Berlin-Johannisthal den Flugzeugführerschein #345. Im folgenden Jahr nahm er als einer von wenigen deutschen Flugzeugführern am Balkankrieg auf Seiten des Osmanischen Reiches teil. Diesem Umstand verdankt er seinen Spitznamen: Türken-Flieger. Sein Beobachter auf diesen Flügen war der osmanische Offizier Selim Kemal (seit Peter Supf in der Literatur fälschlich als Mustafa Kemal [Kemal Atatürk] bezeichnet - dieser war aber bereits in höheren militärischen Dienst tätig). Für Scherffs Einsatz an der Front erhielt er die Iftihar-Medaille in Silber, eine hohe osmanische Auszeichnung. Scherff veröffentlichte einen Erlebnisbericht: 'Auf Kriegspfaden im Lande des Halbmondes' in der Zeitschrift „Die Flieger“, Jahrbuch des Bundes Deutscher Flugzeugführer e.V., Jahrgang 1913."

translated as;

"On a Harlan monoplane on New Year's Eve 1912 in Berlin-Johannisthal, he acquired the # 345 aircraft license. The following year he participated as one of a few German pilots on the Balkan war on the part of the Ottoman Empire. He owes this nickname to his nickname: Turkish aviator. His observer on these flights was the Ottoman officer Selim Kemal (since Peter Supf in the literature falsely referred to as Mustafa Kemal [Kemal Atatürk] - this was already working in higher military service). For Scherff's mission at the front he received the Iftihar medal in silver, a high Ottoman award. Scherff published an experience report: 'On warpaths in the land of the half-moon' in the magazine "the fliers", yearbook of the federation of German pilot aircraft e.V., vintage 1913.:


Mate the photo does not look like the Great man (Ataturk) and could be Selim Kemal?

I record him as;

Salim or Selim Kemal Bey pilot Airforce Capt PoW 6-11-14 Balkan War (Bleriot) with pilot Mauricio 'Mario' Scherff and Kemal Bey (navigator) later WWI captured 6-11-14 by Russians on Black Sea Caucasian

Cheers

S.B

A McAuslan
Financial supporter
Posts: 32
Joined: 28 Jul 2012 10:06

Re: Ottoman Air units

Postby A McAuslan » 23 Mar 2018 11:59

Thanks for your rapid and very informative reply. If it would be of interest to you I can dig out the whole article and scan it in to let you read it.
Thanks again, Sandy McAuslan

Tosun Saral
Member
Posts: 3572
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 19:32
Location: Ankara/Turkey

Re: Ottoman Air units

Postby Tosun Saral » 24 Mar 2018 14:41

I gave information about Scherff: The Turk is Selim Kemal Bey not Mustafa Kemal Bey (Atatürk) :)
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=117442&p=2008335&hilit=Scherff#p2008335

A McAuslan
Financial supporter
Posts: 32
Joined: 28 Jul 2012 10:06

Re: Ottoman Air units

Postby A McAuslan » 25 Mar 2018 20:23

Thanks again. Consider confirmed Turkish Officer is Selim Kemal Bey - not Ataturk.
Sandy McAuslan


Return to “The end of the Ottoman Empire 1908-1923”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot]