enver pasha in central asia

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
panzerkrieg
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enver pasha in central asia

Post by panzerkrieg » 19 Jan 2005 04:18

hello
was there a plan by enver pasha to form a pan-turkish empire in central asia? he was apparently killed fighting against the communists.Was this idea possible considering the diversity amongst the people of central asia?

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Mehmet Fatih
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Post by Mehmet Fatih » 19 Jan 2005 22:44

Enver Pasha's greatest goal was to unite all Turks under the same flag.He wanted to establish Turan.He ordered the assault on Russia to connect the Central Asian Turks to Ottoman Empire.But he failed.90000 Turkish soldiers died of cold and diseases without shooting a rifle round.The assault on Sarikamis took its place in history as Sarikamis Disasater.
After the war he first went to Berlin and then went to Central Asia to organise Turks against Bolsheviks.On August 4th 1922 he was leading a cavalry charge against Bolsheviks when he was killed by machine gun fire.In fact all of his men were dead or wounded.He was alone on the battlefield.He pulled his sword out and rode his horse on Bolshevik defence positions.He was cut by machine gun fire.The most powerful man of Ottoman Empire in the last years of the empire,died alone near Dusanbe when he was 41.

There are many links about him but they are all turkish.But you can find English articles if you google for it.I will try to find.

Regards.

panzerkrieg
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Post by panzerkrieg » 20 Jan 2005 02:56

thanks waffen_fur_alle,
It seems that enver pasha died a hero's death!!!...........i would really appreciate if you would send me some links .....i have a question were there any differences b/w ataturk and enver pasha ? cuz i think in 1922 there was a war with greece going on in anatolia.
many thanks
panzerkrieg

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RCW Mark
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Post by RCW Mark » 20 Jan 2005 09:17

Was this idea possible considering the diversity amongst the people of central asia?
No. The plan was foolish, both in believing that the "Turks" as a whole had sufficient cultural unity to make such an idea worthwhile and in ignoring the immense practical difficulties (the distances involved are immense, for a start). In fact even the idea of somehow unifying the various turkic peoples never gained more than an occasional supporter, then as now, since it pops up as a longing from time to time in Turks dreaming of past glories. (Imagine if Sweden proposed to "unite" Denmark, Norway, Iceland and bits of the Baltic states -- on the basis that they all share a common linguistic and cultural heritage -- to see the sort of response that central Turks would have given to being ruled from Istanbul/Ankara.)

Enver was not even able to command unified respect among the Basmachi rebels fighting the Soviets, let alone the Turks as a whole.

Mark

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Post by Mehmet Fatih » 20 Jan 2005 15:22

Dear Panzerkrieg,

Enver Pasha was always in a competition against Ataturk.They were both close to the Sultan.They were even born in same year! 1881.They had close political ideas.They were together in Ittihat ve Terakki Party.But Enver married with sultans's daughter and became a royal member.Later,Ataturk had confusions about the acts of party,he felt that Enver was leading the country into upcoming war.He said that he was against entering the war.Enver ordered Teskilat-i Mahsusa(secret service of Ittihat ve Terakki) to kill Mustafa Kemal.But Captain Yakup Cemil who was ordered to kill Mustafa Kemal rejected to obey the order and convinced Enver Pasa to spare his life.(Grandson of Yakup Cemil was also in Turkish intelligence agency.He used his grandfather's name as his code name during the secret operations against Armenian terrorists in Europe in early 80s.He is the person who killed Agop Agopyan,the leader of ASALA terrorist organisation.)After WW1 Enver went to Central Asia.Mustafa Kemal went to Anatolia to start the revolution movement.After every victory,Enver Pasa congratulated Mustafa Kemal.He was away from his country but his heart was here with the Turkish soldiers who fought against Greek invaders.But he couldnt see the victory.As i wrote above ,he died in 1922.

P.S.:Panzerkrieg,give me time to find some articles in English.If i cant find english articles.I can translate some good Turkish articles for you.

Regards

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Post by panzerkrieg » 20 Jan 2005 16:18

take your time !Waffen_fur_alle
i did google for articles on enver pasha and found some,but like you said nothing great in english.What is the legacy of pasha today in turkey considering his rivalry with ataturk? I do understand that a lot of turks see him as a national hero.
once again .........thanx for your help

nathan

P.S Mark you have an interesting idea i think it would have appealed to charles XII !!!

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Post by Mehmet Fatih » 20 Jan 2005 18:58

Panzerkrieg,
Here is an interesting article about Enver Pasha.It can give you some opinions about Enver Pasha's reputation in modern Turkey.

Turkish Daily News 5 Aug 1996

ISTANBUL- A state funeral was held in Istanbul Sunday for Enver Pasha (1881-1922), the mercurial and tempestuous leader of the Young Turks revolution and a member of the triumvirate that ruled the Ottoman Empire during World War I. In military ceremonies, attended by President Suleyman Demirel, ministers, deputies and Turkey's top generals, authorities buried the remains of the Ottoman general and former war minister, returned to Turkey Saturday from Tajikistan, at the Hrriyet-i Ebediye Tepesi, a memorial hill in the Caglayan district.

"Enver Pasha, with his faults and merits, is an important symbol of our recent history. We have no doubt that history will reach the proper judgements through evaluating past events," President Suleyman Demirel said, adding that Enver Pasha's separation from his home country and exile had come to an end. State Minister Abdullah Gul said that Enver Pasha was a general who had died along with thousands of others, thus attaining the status of a martyr, while fighting to unite all Muslim and Turkic countries in Asia. "We will build a monument on the spot where Enver Pasha's grave used to be," he said. The hill contains an impressive monument 12 meters high commemorating the 1908 Young Turks revolution that restored the constitution and ended the absolute monarchy in the Ottoman Empire as well as the tombs of many of the leaders of the Committee of Union and Progress, the political group that ruled the Ottoman Empire from 1900-1918.

The funeral began with a religious ceremony at Sisli Mosque, in downtown Istanbul, where thousands of Turks gathered. The flag-draped coffin was then carried through Sisli in a hearse to Memorial Hill where Enver Pasha was buried in a newly built tomb next to Talat Pasha, one of the Ottoman World War I triumvirate. The ceremony was held on the 74th anniversary of his death. Enver Pasha entered the Turkish army and was sent to Salonika, where he instigated the Young Turks revolt. He served as military attache in Berlin in 1909, returning to Istanbul to help suppress a counterrevolution. He eventually became leader of the triumvirate, which included Ottoman Prime Minister Talat Pasha and Cemal Pasha, the marine minister, that led the Ottoman Empire to its defeat in World War I on the side of Germany and the losing Central Powers and to its dismemberment.

After the end of the war, he was court-martialed in 1919 for signing a secret deal with the Germans and sentenced to one-year in exile and deprived of his civil rights. He was also blamed for leading the disastrous Sarikamish winter military campaign in 1914, during which nearly 70,000 Ottoman soldiers froze to death in the cold weather.

After the war, he fled from Istanbul to Germany and eventually to Russia where he sided first with the White Russians and then the Bolsheviks, with whom he finally broke to lead a failed Pan-Turkist movement aimed to unite all Turks under one flag in Central Asia. He was killed in a battle on Aug. 4, 1922, leading a cavalry charge against Bolshevik troops near Dusanbe.

The Turkish delegation responsible for bringing back the body of Enver Pasha from Tajikistan have said that they were impressed by the local people's commitment to the Turkish national hero.

The residents of the remote mountain village of Obtar in Belcivan, Tajikistan, say that they understand that the Pasha, whom they deem to be a 'martyr' and a 'hero,' is going back to his motherland, but that they feel sad that they are parting from him. They say that it is a consolation that a monument will be built in the place of the grave. The Turkish delegation is also bringing back a letter to Mahpeyker Hanim, Enver Pasha's daughter from a "close friend of her father whom she does not know," living in the village of Obtar. Muzaffer Sah, who took care of the Pasha's grave, is the person who has helped the most to end the Pasha's 74-year long separation from his home country.

Muzaffer Sah's links to Enver Pasha go back to his father, Talip Sah, who took care of financial matters at Enver Pasha's headquarters. After removing the Pasha's dead body so that it would not be desecrated by the Russians, Talip Pasha built a secret grave for him not only on Cegan Hill, but also on the spot where the Pasha's blood had collected in a ditch. Talip Sah considered it a sacred duty for himself and his family to protect the grave of Enver Pasha, whom he called 'my commander' and accompanied until his last breath. Muzaffer Sah, who is leading a very harsh life in Tajikistan which is currently suffering from political and economic crises, wrote in his letter: "We greet the daughter of Enver Pasha. We have taken good care of your father for 75 years. We hope you will help us." Osman Mayatepek, the grandson of the Pasha, could not hold back his tears upon reading the letter. "The Pasha's family will not let such an example of loyalty go unrewarded," he said.

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Post by panzerkrieg » 20 Jan 2005 19:20

thanks waffen_fur_alle
i guess enver pasha though a somewhat controversial figure had the best interests of the turkish people at heart.

really appreciate your help

nathan

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Mehmet Fatih
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Post by Mehmet Fatih » 20 Jan 2005 22:28

Panzerkrieg,

I would be glad if i can help you.
Yes many people write about him.Some of them praise him,some of them criticize him.But all Turks have respect for him.

I appreciate your interest.

Regards

P.S.:I am still looking for some good article to translate for you.

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Re:

Post by Cantankerous » 19 Jan 2021 02:48

Mehmet Fatih wrote:
19 Jan 2005 22:44
Enver Pasha's greatest goal was to unite all Turks under the same flag.He wanted to establish Turan.He ordered the assault on Russia to connect the Central Asian Turks to Ottoman Empire.But he failed.90000 Turkish soldiers died of cold and diseases without shooting a rifle round.The assault on Sarikamis took its place in history as Sarikamis Disasater.
After the war he first went to Berlin and then went to Central Asia to organise Turks against Bolsheviks.On August 4th 1922 he was leading a cavalry charge against Bolsheviks when he was killed by machine gun fire.In fact all of his men were dead or wounded.He was alone on the battlefield.He pulled his sword out and rode his horse on Bolshevik defence positions.He was cut by machine gun fire.The most powerful man of Ottoman Empire in the last years of the empire,died alone near Dusanbe when he was 41.

There are many links about him but they are all turkish.But you can find English articles if you google for it.I will try to find.

Regards.
When did Enver Pasha flee to Central Asia to form his own militia to carry on his ambition to create a Turkic state in Central Asia. Did Czar Nicholas II put local troops in Central Asia on alert for any potential Turkish intrusions into Central Asia on part of Enver Pasha and his troops during World War I?

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Re: enver pasha in central asia

Post by J. Duncan » 04 Feb 2021 11:33

Interesting thread. I’m interested in Enver Pasha as a historical figure but very little in English on him as a man (no biographies in English as far as I am aware). This pen portrait by journalist Louise Bryant (wife of John Reed of “Ten Days that Shook the World” fame) from her book “Mirrors of Moscow” is noteworthy.....sounds like there was a brief collaboration of Enver Pasha with the Bolshevik regime.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/bryant ... /pasha.htm

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