Catalca Line 1912

[Peter H]

Again has anyone got modern photos of the old positions or is it because of current military considerations that access to this area(or part of it) is denied?

Seems the position was also used in WW2:
http://docs.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/psf/b ... 18m02.html

March 1941..Turkey. One division has moved to Recomza area from near
Uzunkopru and a second division from the same area is reported
to have moved to East Ergen River in support. Troops in Catalca
line have been reinforced by one division.

During the Cold War did NATO Turkey have any military encampements,training grounds in the same area to counter any Warsaw Pact attacks via Bulgaria?

[Peter H]

Old map here as well?

http://www.bura.org.tr/haberler/haberoku.asp?hid=576


And modern

http://www.kesfetmekicinbak.com/kultur/tarih/08298/

[PatriotTurk]

From Ed Erickson's Defeat in Detail:

...this position took its name from a small village about forty kilometers west of Constantinople.The tremendous natural strength of the Catalca position has never been adequately addressed in the history of the Balkan Wars...the ridgeline was largely open grassland and offers magnificient observation to the west...because of coastal lakes the actual defensible terrain requirement at the Catalca position is a front of only twenty-five kilometers in length.Assuming that the enemy does not have an amphibious capability,the Catalca position is one of the finest defensive positions in Europe.

Has anyone got photos from 1912/13 of this position?

Or modern day photos?


A map also from Erickson

A modern photo from Catalca Line

[Tosun Saral]

Wellcome to forum my friend!
The bunker shown above was made before WW2 to stop a possible invasion to Turkish soil. The plans of the defence line was made by Fieldmarshall Mustafa Fevzi Çakmak. For that reason the line was called "Çakmak hattı" the Çakmak line. Those bunkers were made to stop the infantry and cavalry. But not pra-troops or panzers or motorized army. Millions of Turkish money was invested for that line for nothing. During the WW2 germans come to Turkish border, They even shook hands as old Kamaraden.

[PatriotTurk]

Wellcome to forum my friend!
The bunker shown above was made before WW2 to stop a possible invasion to Turkish soil. The plans of the defence line was made by Fieldmarshall Mustafa Fevzi Çakmak. For that reason the line was called "Çakmak hattı" the Çakmak line. Those bunkers were made to stop the infantry and cavalry. But not pra-troops or panzers or motorized army. Millions of Turkish money was invested for that line for nothing. During the WW2 germans come to Turkish border, They even shook hands as old Kamaraden.

Yes, Turkish money was invested for that line for nothing. But upgrades of ww2 was made in same position as Çatalca Line. For this reason, i added these photos. We must not forget Mustafa Kemal's words about that line:

"The War is always doing on the soil. It is being won or lost on the ground. No matter how strong Çakmak Line.. Her life is as short as that of a battle. I dont bury my nation's money for the sake of a whim.."

"Savaş, oldum olası toprak üstünde yapılır ve toprak üstünde kazanılır, yahut kaybedilir. Çakmak Hattı ne kadar güçlü olursa olsun ömrü, bir muharebeninki kadar kısadır. Ben milletimin parasını bir kapris uğruna toprak altına gömdürmem."

Tosun, my friend you can fix it if translate may be problem.

Greetings

[PatriotTurk]

A Çatalca photo here as well from the Bulgarian side:
http://hobymarketatillasaribas.azbuz.co ... TOGRAFLAR-

What is the highpoint in the distance(second photo)?

I've searched for this on Google Earth when i look on this direction i saw many point like this peak. That was very difficult to determinate because the geography has changed a lot. I was eliminated some option. But al least eureka! I think I've found



Bulgarian Soldiers Location

Latitude
41°41'43.34"K

Longitude
26°32'15.47"E

2. Beyazit Külliyesi - Bayezid II's Complex

Latitude
41°41'8.58"K

Longitude
26°32'39.93"E

Selimiye Camii - Selimiye Mosque

Latitude
41°40'41.05"K

Longitude
26°33'12.46"E

You can check these coordinates on Google Earth

[Peter H]

Excellent,thanks for that.

Peter

[Peter H]

From ebay,seller dixie_auctions

Turkish rifleman 1940--terrain looks like that in European Turkey?

[PatriotTurk]

From ebay,seller dixie_auctions

Turkish rifleman 1940--terrain looks like that in European Turkey?

Yes, Turkey.. maybe gendarme soldier.. But i am in confusion this may east trakia or central anatolia..

[Peter H]

From: http://gallica.bnf.fr/

"Tchataldja" photos from 1913

[PatriotTurk]

excellent..

thanks

[tigre]

Hello to all ; a complement....................

Bulgarians against Ottomans.

Operation Catalca (17.-18.11.1912).

After the defeats at Kirklareli and Lüleburgaz-Pinarhisar and the Bulgarian boycott of the negotiations, the Ottomans took steps to avert disaster. Three new corps were transferred from the rear to the so-called Catalca defense line. In addition, three corps were raised from the rest of the defeated armies: by early November, the Ottoman forces in eastern Thrace numbered six corps and 17 divisions with a total of 190,000 men and 350 guns.

Their objective was to stop the advance of the Bulgarians on Constantinople, taking advantage of the terrain and the fortifications. For this purpose, preparations were made for naval landings across the Black Sea and the Sea of Marmara in the rear of the advancing troops.

For their part, the Bulgarians, after a 120 km march, prepared according to their plan of operations to quickly break through the enemy defenses, push the enemy in a decisive attack against their right flank towards the Sea of Marmara and annihilate them. The main advance would come from the left flank of the 3rd Army (3rd and 5th Infantry Divisions) in the direction of Lasarköj Fortress.

The second supporting offensive was to come from the flanks of the 1st and 3rd Army (6th and 9th Infantry Divisions) against the center of the Catalca position in the direction of Ezettin-Nakasköj. In addition, a newly formed division was sent to the Adrianople area. The Bulgarian forces numbered eight divisions (including the 1st Cavalry Division) with 118,000 men and 462 artillery pieces. The infantry ratio was 1.6:1 in favor of the Ottomans and the artillery ratio 1.3:1 in favor of the Bulgarians.

The fighting at Catalca lasted only two days before the Bulgarians fell back to their starting positions, mainly due to the failure of their artillery, and suffered heavy losses. In an unfavorable situation, they ended the operation, as taking the Ottoman positions would have cost too many casualties. Result and assessment:
Losses:
a) Bulgarians: 1,480 dead, 13,000 wounded, 1,400 missing, 1,600 dead from wounds;
b) Ottomans: 3,500 dead and more than 22,000 wounded.

The Ottomans found a foothold behind the fortifications of the Catalca position in defense of Constantinople. This position would acquire decisive importance and would become the center of events until the conclusion of the armistice at the beginning of December 1912. The Catalca Defense Line, drawn between 1877 and 1879, extended 25 km in the narrowest part of the Constantinople Peninsula between Büyük-Cekmece (to the south, on the Sea of Marmara) and Lake Derkos (to the north, on the Black Sea). A ridge served as a defensive position, stretching from Karaburun on the Black Sea through Derkos - Delijunus - Kurukavak - Akbunar - Mahmud-Pasha to the northern end of Lake Büyük-Cekmece. Opposite this line flowed the Karasu and Lazarksy rivers. This was a system of 29 fortresses located 40 km from the Bosphorus. In between were infantry positions, batteries and machine gun positions.

Source: Bulgarian Gegen Osmanen. Militärgeografische Bedeutung Südosteuropas im Ersten Balkankrieg. Paul Meinrad Strassle. ÖMZ 5/2008.

Cheers. Raúl M .

[tigre]

Hello to all ; a complement....................

Bulgarians against Ottomans.

Operation Catalca (17.-18.11.1912).

From the defender's point of view, the weakness of Catalca's position was in front of its right wing. Here, south of Lake Derkos, the dense and lush Derkos Forest stretched almost 15 km in front of the Ottoman position. As a result, the Ottomans' (artillery) field of fire was badly affected in this long stretch. The impassable and dense forest, crossed by many gorges, could not be a long-term obstacle to movement, since it also allowed the attacker to get closer under cover.

The defender had to choose between two options to face this danger:
Either the bottom of the deep, swampy valley was used as a defensive section, which was formed by the tributary of Lake Derkos, which meandered past the village of Lazarköj, or the aforementioned range of hills to the east of the great forest was chosen. Another disadvantage of the position was that the defender could not counterattack under favorable circumstances. Facing the middle and south of Lake Derkos, a counter-attack from the defensive position had to cross the aforementioned swampy sections of Katarci and Karasu. Another disadvantage of the defensive position was the lack of water.

The earthworks that existed when the war broke out were on a flat ridge and were set up partly for infantry and machine guns, partly for heavy artillery. Even if only three permanent works with secured ammunition depots met the 1912 requirements, the whole system was still strong enough with a half-determined defense to offer sensible resistance to the attacker. Barbed wire and other obstacles at the main points of attack were able to sustainably increase the freedom of action for the assault and remove some of the weaknesses of the fortifications, some of which were outdated.

The strength of the Catalca position demonstrated to the defender that the Ottoman warships could intervene with their weapons in the land battles of both the Black Sea and the Sea of Marmara and act against the flanks of the Bulgars. The Ottoman warships took advantage of this favorable opportunity on several occasions, since the deep waters allowed them to approach the two coasts at effective distances.

The Bulgarians, on the other hand, found it difficult to count on a frontal attack. Encirclement was out of the question and naval support could not take place as the Ottomans dominated the sea.

Source: Bulgarian Gegen Osmanen. Militärgeografische Bedeutung Südosteuropas im Ersten Balkankrieg. Paul Meinrad Strassle. ÖMZ 5/2008.

Cheers. Raúl M .