The list of German/Austro-Hungarian artillery units is very interesting.
There was one line that caught my attention:
"10.5 M. 14 Türkeifeldhaubitz-Batterie N0. 2"
There is a surviving 10.5cm Skoda M14 howitzer at Oakey, Queensland - www.ammsbrisbane.com/documentation/lfh14_1.html - I wonder if the Oakey howitzer belonged to this unit.
Marco at bulgarianartillery.it suggests the 1913 build date 75mm guns were part of a Brazilian order of 108 guns seized by the Germans at the outbreak of WW1. His data says that 40 of these guns were given to Turkey the rest were used by the Germans and eventually the survivors were given to the Bulgarians in 1915.
Regards,
Charlie
Turkish Artillery
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Osman Levent
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Re: Turkish Artillery
This Austrian Unit is known to have been absconded to the 3rd Infantry Division and to have served during three repeated offensives against the Canal over the Sinai before being positioned in Gazah. The unit remained as part of the defensive perimeter of the City until 06.11.17 when they were ordered to report to the 8th Army Command deployed in "et Tîre" (i.e. Yinnon, Israel) at that date. After having joined the Army, they were to withdraw with them all the way to "Tûl Kerîm" (i.e. Toul Qarim, Palestine) to be positioned there until 21.09.18 when the Allied Army made their major and final attack where many an Ottoman unit was put into disarray. I would venture to say that it is at this time that this piece was abandoned.
As far as the 1913 75 mm guns are concerned; I fully agree with Marco about the Brazilian guns. But we have to remember that the gun in your picture does not have a Turkish marking whereas the allied Bulgarian and the Turkish forces fighting in Southern Romania and Macedonia under the same command would definitely mark their own lest a "mix up" should occur. Since I'm not well versed in Artillery lore; would it be possible to find out if the Romanian Army had any Krupp pieces. I know they had French and Russian pieces; but this point eludes me.
Another small note about the Quorn and the Mt Morgan guns; the War Annals of the Turkish Army concerning the evacuation of Gazah refer to two "Ship Guns" which were also carried to safety away from Gazah. Maybe you guys can ascertain this possibility. If this is the case; there is a possibility they might be those dismantled from the Corvette "Asar ı Tevfik" which had hopelessly run aground near Podima (i.e. Kıyı Köy, Turkey) on the Black Sea by 11.02.13. Even though the vessel was commissioned by December 1868; it had been renewed and its guns modernized in 1892. Could your guns be this old ?
Best Regards, Osman Levend
As far as the 1913 75 mm guns are concerned; I fully agree with Marco about the Brazilian guns. But we have to remember that the gun in your picture does not have a Turkish marking whereas the allied Bulgarian and the Turkish forces fighting in Southern Romania and Macedonia under the same command would definitely mark their own lest a "mix up" should occur. Since I'm not well versed in Artillery lore; would it be possible to find out if the Romanian Army had any Krupp pieces. I know they had French and Russian pieces; but this point eludes me.
Another small note about the Quorn and the Mt Morgan guns; the War Annals of the Turkish Army concerning the evacuation of Gazah refer to two "Ship Guns" which were also carried to safety away from Gazah. Maybe you guys can ascertain this possibility. If this is the case; there is a possibility they might be those dismantled from the Corvette "Asar ı Tevfik" which had hopelessly run aground near Podima (i.e. Kıyı Köy, Turkey) on the Black Sea by 11.02.13. Even though the vessel was commissioned by December 1868; it had been renewed and its guns modernized in 1892. Could your guns be this old ?
Best Regards, Osman Levend
Re: Turkish Artillery
It sounds reasonable the Australian Light Horse were used in a reconnaissance role in the area the Skoda gun may have been abandoned.
The Rumanians were major users of the Krupp 75mm gun - they bought about 1000 guns before WW1. The Rumanian guns in Australia still have the original markings on them (no Arabic markings). I suspect they were just taken on strength by the units that captured them - the 26th Infantry Division from one of your previous posts. The Brazilian order guns may have been handled in a similar way - delivered to the fighting units rather than being processed through the Top Hane as the pre-war orders of guns were. I note that the Turkish Army acquired 52 75mm Schneider guns in 1912 which had been ordered by Serbia. I have a couple of images of one of these guns found in Baghdad, Iraq in 2003 - the original Serbian markings are still on the gun with no sign of any Arabic markings. There's also one of the Schneiders in Australia but it's in far North Queensland about where cyclone Yasi hit the coast in February. I think the people up there have more important problems than looking at gun markings at the moment.
Your comments on the fortress guns are very interesting - there is a South Australian website - www.tributesofhonour.info which says the gun at Quorn is a German Naval gun. I haven't seen the Quorn gun personally - Quorn is a remote town NE of Adelaide. The similar gun at Mt Morgan has the breech collapsed into the carriage so the breech ring markings can't be seen. Certainly the gun barrels are quite old - since the barrels don't have a reinforcing tube in front of the breech they must be earlier than the 1870s. It may well be that the barrels came from a Naval ship. Since they are smooth bore guns designed for close in defence of a fortress they would probably have been safe to fire with a reduced amount of propellant compared to their original propellant loads. The gun carriages of the Quorn and Mt Morgan guns don't look like Naval mountings. We'll have to try harder to get the breech markings of the Quorn gun.
Regards,
Charlie
The Rumanians were major users of the Krupp 75mm gun - they bought about 1000 guns before WW1. The Rumanian guns in Australia still have the original markings on them (no Arabic markings). I suspect they were just taken on strength by the units that captured them - the 26th Infantry Division from one of your previous posts. The Brazilian order guns may have been handled in a similar way - delivered to the fighting units rather than being processed through the Top Hane as the pre-war orders of guns were. I note that the Turkish Army acquired 52 75mm Schneider guns in 1912 which had been ordered by Serbia. I have a couple of images of one of these guns found in Baghdad, Iraq in 2003 - the original Serbian markings are still on the gun with no sign of any Arabic markings. There's also one of the Schneiders in Australia but it's in far North Queensland about where cyclone Yasi hit the coast in February. I think the people up there have more important problems than looking at gun markings at the moment.
Your comments on the fortress guns are very interesting - there is a South Australian website - www.tributesofhonour.info which says the gun at Quorn is a German Naval gun. I haven't seen the Quorn gun personally - Quorn is a remote town NE of Adelaide. The similar gun at Mt Morgan has the breech collapsed into the carriage so the breech ring markings can't be seen. Certainly the gun barrels are quite old - since the barrels don't have a reinforcing tube in front of the breech they must be earlier than the 1870s. It may well be that the barrels came from a Naval ship. Since they are smooth bore guns designed for close in defence of a fortress they would probably have been safe to fire with a reduced amount of propellant compared to their original propellant loads. The gun carriages of the Quorn and Mt Morgan guns don't look like Naval mountings. We'll have to try harder to get the breech markings of the Quorn gun.
Regards,
Charlie
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Osman Levent
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Re: Turkish Artillery
Many thanks for the info on the Romanian Krupps. Now I can understand the presence of these 75 mm's in the Ottoman and later in the Turkish Army during the War of Independence.
About the Quorn and Mt Morgan guns it appears that a picture is slowly emerging through the mist. It would be my conjecture that soon after the guns on "Asar ı Tevfik" were dismantled when it was realized that there was no hope of re-floating the Corvette; they must have been brought to Top Hâne and modified to serve as Fortress Guns on the ramparts of the Dardanelles (i.e. Çanak Kale) fortifications. Apparently when the Allied Fleet as well as land forces evacuated Gallipoli, they must have been rushed to Palestine since the Ottoman High Command new very well that every piece would be needed there. The Turkish War Annals tell us that these "Ship Guns" were positioned on the heights about 8 miles north east of Gazah at Ca’ulis (i.e. Nir Ysrael, Israel) until the end of the third and final British offensive against Gazah.
Best Regards, Osman Levend
About the Quorn and Mt Morgan guns it appears that a picture is slowly emerging through the mist. It would be my conjecture that soon after the guns on "Asar ı Tevfik" were dismantled when it was realized that there was no hope of re-floating the Corvette; they must have been brought to Top Hâne and modified to serve as Fortress Guns on the ramparts of the Dardanelles (i.e. Çanak Kale) fortifications. Apparently when the Allied Fleet as well as land forces evacuated Gallipoli, they must have been rushed to Palestine since the Ottoman High Command new very well that every piece would be needed there. The Turkish War Annals tell us that these "Ship Guns" were positioned on the heights about 8 miles north east of Gazah at Ca’ulis (i.e. Nir Ysrael, Israel) until the end of the third and final British offensive against Gazah.
Best Regards, Osman Levend
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Osman Levent
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Re: Turkish Artillery
In a different book I've found the armament list of "Asar ı Tevfik" throughout the years after being delivered to the Ottoman Navy on 28.08.68 and during two major renovations.
2 x Muzzle Loading 220 mm from Armstrong (1868)
6 x Muzzle Loading 220 mm from Armstrong (1891)
2 x Breach Loading 210 mm from Krupp (1891)
2 x Breach Loading 87 mm from Krupp (1891) => I believe these are the guns in question
2 x Breach Loading 63.5 mm from Krupp (1891)
2 x Breach Loading 25.4 mm from Nordenfeldt (1891)
3 x Quick Firing 150 mm L / 40 from Krupp (1906)
7 x Quick Firing 120 mm L / 40 from Krupp (1906)
6 x Quick Firing 57 mm from Krupp (1906)
2 x Quick Firing 37 mm from Krupp (1906)
Best Regards, Osman Levend
2 x Muzzle Loading 220 mm from Armstrong (1868)
6 x Muzzle Loading 220 mm from Armstrong (1891)
2 x Breach Loading 210 mm from Krupp (1891)
2 x Breach Loading 87 mm from Krupp (1891) => I believe these are the guns in question
2 x Breach Loading 63.5 mm from Krupp (1891)
2 x Breach Loading 25.4 mm from Nordenfeldt (1891)
3 x Quick Firing 150 mm L / 40 from Krupp (1906)
7 x Quick Firing 120 mm L / 40 from Krupp (1906)
6 x Quick Firing 57 mm from Krupp (1906)
2 x Quick Firing 37 mm from Krupp (1906)
Best Regards, Osman Levend
Last edited by Osman Levent on 25 Mar 2011, 01:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Osman Levent
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Re: Turkish Artillery
Dear Charlie,
For the last week or so, I've been looking at our guns mounted in various Australian towns and museums; well kept, freshly painted and apparently in perfect condition. Their immaculate sight has certainly put some moisture on the shrivelled cheeks of this old Johnny Turk. Rest assured that my feelings are not due to the loss of these guns but to a sense of wonder anyone would feel when realizing that an old and long presumed dead relative is still alive and well looked after. But through what a journey. Especially the 87 mm in Quorn.
Being created in Essen, Germany to be mounted on the deck of an Ottoman Corvette in Kiel; to be carried to the walls of a tall Fortress along the Straights after being part of a deck for seven years; to be loaded on a train bound for the Holy Land only three years later to serve faithfully for another three and finally to be abandoned as our boys needed the draught animals to carry a much more precious cargo, the wounded. And who knows, they might even have served their new friends in the European Field since if I'm not terribly mistaken you Aussies have also fought the very makers of this beautiful piece so close to their place of origin. And finally to Australia where they were obviously cherished for almost ninety years. I know that some people do consider these pieces as trophies. But please believe me when I say that the greatest trophy the ANZAC has received in Gallipoli and in Palestine is how we Turks have known and respected you guys as "Clean Fighters"
Would you then, kind friend; do me a great favour and pass on a note of deep gratitude from me for whatever it is worth to your people at the AWM for being such good custodians of our mutual history.
Thanking you in advance; my best regards, Osman Levend
For the last week or so, I've been looking at our guns mounted in various Australian towns and museums; well kept, freshly painted and apparently in perfect condition. Their immaculate sight has certainly put some moisture on the shrivelled cheeks of this old Johnny Turk. Rest assured that my feelings are not due to the loss of these guns but to a sense of wonder anyone would feel when realizing that an old and long presumed dead relative is still alive and well looked after. But through what a journey. Especially the 87 mm in Quorn.
Being created in Essen, Germany to be mounted on the deck of an Ottoman Corvette in Kiel; to be carried to the walls of a tall Fortress along the Straights after being part of a deck for seven years; to be loaded on a train bound for the Holy Land only three years later to serve faithfully for another three and finally to be abandoned as our boys needed the draught animals to carry a much more precious cargo, the wounded. And who knows, they might even have served their new friends in the European Field since if I'm not terribly mistaken you Aussies have also fought the very makers of this beautiful piece so close to their place of origin. And finally to Australia where they were obviously cherished for almost ninety years. I know that some people do consider these pieces as trophies. But please believe me when I say that the greatest trophy the ANZAC has received in Gallipoli and in Palestine is how we Turks have known and respected you guys as "Clean Fighters"
Would you then, kind friend; do me a great favour and pass on a note of deep gratitude from me for whatever it is worth to your people at the AWM for being such good custodians of our mutual history.
Thanking you in advance; my best regards, Osman Levend
Re: Turkish Artillery
I wish it were so...
The AWM has been under severe financial constraints for many years and although they can give advice to restorers of the old guns they can't play any active role in their restoration. Most of the guns restored in recent years have been due to the efforts of local communities deciding to save the guns before they all vanish.
As an example of how much we've lost over the years. In 1921 Queensland was allocated 120 guns and mortars, both German and Turkish. Today we have about 42 left, some of them in very poor condition. Much the same applies to the other states in Australia.
Some of the restorations of the old guns have been extremely good - I've attached a restoration of a 7.7cm Feldkanone 96 n.A - this gun is a couple of km from my house.
Regards,
Charlie
The AWM has been under severe financial constraints for many years and although they can give advice to restorers of the old guns they can't play any active role in their restoration. Most of the guns restored in recent years have been due to the efforts of local communities deciding to save the guns before they all vanish.
As an example of how much we've lost over the years. In 1921 Queensland was allocated 120 guns and mortars, both German and Turkish. Today we have about 42 left, some of them in very poor condition. Much the same applies to the other states in Australia.
Some of the restorations of the old guns have been extremely good - I've attached a restoration of a 7.7cm Feldkanone 96 n.A - this gun is a couple of km from my house.
Regards,
Charlie
- unrestored.jpg (99.38 KiB) Viewed 880 times
- fk96_1_2.jpg (178.2 KiB) Viewed 880 times
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Tosun Saral
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Re: Turkish Artillery
Turkish Artillery in 1924 0r 25. A mule-artillery not horse artillery.
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Tosun Saral
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Re: Turkish Artillery
1543 Turkish Artillery during the siege of Estergon in Hungary.
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Tosun Saral
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Re: Turkish Artillery
Dear Osman Levend Bey, If you fight 1000 years againts seven nations in 7 seas and 3 continents you always leave something behind. Dont be too sad! Turkish Artillery did its best during WW1 againts a mighty empire. Even the cadavar of Turkish guns scares the enemy and gives a new hope of peacce to friends. Here is Turkish made gun captive at a museum in Holland from the collection of our near and distinquished artilerist friend Nuyt.
The Sultan of Aceh on Indian Ocean Alâeddin Riayet ah, wanted protection againts Portuguese from Sultan Suleyman the magnificent in 1547. As the envoy of Aceh came to Istanbul they learned that Sultan Suleyman died during the siege of Zigetvar in Hungary. They spoke with his son Sultan Selim II. Sultan selim ordered an armada of engineers, Janisharies, artillerymen, weapons to support and teach the military tactic to the people of Aceh under the command of Lutfu Bey. The Turks organized the army of Aceh with new military weapons. They built a factory to manufacture weapons and canons and powder. Since that time until the beginning of the 20th Century the name of Turkish Sultan was mentioned in all mosques on every friday. Turks were settled in Gampung Bitai and opened also a military academy. The decendants of those Turks are still living in Ace. They are called Turkish villages.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... rkish+guns
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... ceh+cannon
The Sultan of Aceh on Indian Ocean Alâeddin Riayet ah, wanted protection againts Portuguese from Sultan Suleyman the magnificent in 1547. As the envoy of Aceh came to Istanbul they learned that Sultan Suleyman died during the siege of Zigetvar in Hungary. They spoke with his son Sultan Selim II. Sultan selim ordered an armada of engineers, Janisharies, artillerymen, weapons to support and teach the military tactic to the people of Aceh under the command of Lutfu Bey. The Turks organized the army of Aceh with new military weapons. They built a factory to manufacture weapons and canons and powder. Since that time until the beginning of the 20th Century the name of Turkish Sultan was mentioned in all mosques on every friday. Turks were settled in Gampung Bitai and opened also a military academy. The decendants of those Turks are still living in Ace. They are called Turkish villages.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... rkish+guns
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... ceh+cannon
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Re: Turkish Artillery
The list of German and Austro-Hungarian artillery units is interesting. I think I can match other surviving guns with the units. Is there any record of the equipment these units brought with them to Turkey?
My thought is that the Jamestown Krupp gun may have been the equipment of one of the German artillery units rather than being purchased by the Ottoman Army. The supply of 15cm howitzers to the German Army always was less than the demand for these howitzers since they proved to be one of the best guns for trench warfare on the Western Front. A battery of ex-prototype Krupp howitzers sent to Palestine makes some sense in this context.
Regards,
Charlie
My thought is that the Jamestown Krupp gun may have been the equipment of one of the German artillery units rather than being purchased by the Ottoman Army. The supply of 15cm howitzers to the German Army always was less than the demand for these howitzers since they proved to be one of the best guns for trench warfare on the Western Front. A battery of ex-prototype Krupp howitzers sent to Palestine makes some sense in this context.
Regards,
Charlie
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Osman Levent
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Re: Turkish Artillery
Unfortunately the list of guns are nowhere to be found. Only Unit Names are known and as I've said earlier; even those are far from being complete. The list I gave was the end result of perusing through 1647 pages of Annals of the Palestine Front published by the Turkish General Staff in two volumes as well as several booklets of German Field Post Markers used in the same theatre. Since the subject is not my forte; I will try and see if there is any publication on the subject of Artillery used in the Dardanelles as well as in the Holy Land.
Best Regards, Osman Levend
Best Regards, Osman Levend
Re: Turkish Artillery
I was hopeful that there might be a simple way to find the equipment the German units used. As usual in historical research it isn't easy. It sounds too difficult for the likely outcome. There are people looking for these guns from the German side - if they can't find anything the Turkish records might be the only way to get any details. Let's leave it and see whether the German research can find the guns.
Thanks and Regards,
Charlie
Thanks and Regards,
Charlie
Re: Turkish Artillery
An idle question....
Is there a register of surviving old guns in Turkey? We're slowly putting one together for the guns in Australia. Just the process of finding and identifying the guns has some positive outcomes in terms of bringing the guns to people's attention so the chances of them surviving are improved. http://www.milduraweekly.com.au/?p=3247.
I have another question about the Turkish 75mm Krupp guns...
From this and other forums I understand that some of the 75mm Krupp guns were modified in 1939 with the help of HiH Siderus to extend the life and range of the 75mm guns with a longer barrel and modified carriage. How many guns were converted to this design?
I'm working towards a new section on the Landships II website (www.landships.info) on the Krupp 75mm gun and its many variants. I thought I'd start with the Turkish 75mm guns.
Regards,
Charlie
Is there a register of surviving old guns in Turkey? We're slowly putting one together for the guns in Australia. Just the process of finding and identifying the guns has some positive outcomes in terms of bringing the guns to people's attention so the chances of them surviving are improved. http://www.milduraweekly.com.au/?p=3247.
I have another question about the Turkish 75mm Krupp guns...
From this and other forums I understand that some of the 75mm Krupp guns were modified in 1939 with the help of HiH Siderus to extend the life and range of the 75mm guns with a longer barrel and modified carriage. How many guns were converted to this design?
I'm working towards a new section on the Landships II website (www.landships.info) on the Krupp 75mm gun and its many variants. I thought I'd start with the Turkish 75mm guns.
Regards,
Charlie
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Osman Levent
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Re: Turkish Artillery
About the Mörser Guns;
The Austrians had a "automob. 24 cm. mörserbatterie" positioned in the Dardanelles which was to be transported to Be’er Shewa later during the war. Any info on these ?
Best Regards, Osman Levend
The Austrians had a "automob. 24 cm. mörserbatterie" positioned in the Dardanelles which was to be transported to Be’er Shewa later during the war. Any info on these ?
Best Regards, Osman Levend