Turkish WW1 Artillery

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
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Hoplophile
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Post by Hoplophile » 04 Nov 2006 06:46

adolpheit wrote:
Do you know the caliber of the Krupp field guns bought by Turkish Army in the second half of 19th century: 75mm and 87mm or 8cm (78.5mm) and 9cm (88mm)?
The sources I have are very confused about this topic.

.
According to Loebells Jahresberichte, 1912, p. 398, the older Krupp field guns in the Ottoman Army were all Model 1873 87mm guns ("8,7 cm F.K. 1873"). The older 75mm guns made by Krupp were all mountain guns ("7,5 cm Geb.K. 1873")

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Post by Hoplophile » 04 Nov 2006 07:04

In 1910 or so, Krupp sold two types of field guns that fired the 6.5 kilo 75mm shell used by the Ottoman Army - one that weighed 1071 kilos and one that weighed 995 kilos. (The weights are rough, as I am converting from a British source that gave the weights in 'London hundredweights', which I converted at a rate of 51 kilos per hundredweight.)

This difference in weights was in keeping with the German Army's philosophy of providing horse artillery units with a somewhat lighter field piece that fired the same ammunition as the field piece issued to field artillery units.

The 75mm Krupp mountain guns sold to the Ottoman Army used a shell that was much lighter (5 kilos or so) than that fired by the 75mm field gun. The velocity of this shell, moreover, was much less than that of a field gun shell. When combined with the difficulty that pack animals would have keeping up with cavalry and the problem of assembling the mountain gun before firing, this fact makes it extremely unlikely that mountain guns would be issued to horse artillery batteries, at least under normal circumstances.

Thus, though I don't have access to detailed orders of battle for Ottoman cavalry units, I suspect that the 75mm gun issued to horse artillery batteries would have been the "light" version of the Krupp 75mm field gun.

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Post by Hoplophile » 04 Nov 2006 07:04

In 1910 or so, Krupp sold two types of field guns that fired the 6.5 kilo 75mm shell used by the Ottoman Army - one that weighed 1071 kilos and one that weighed 995 kilos. (The weights are rough, as I am converting from a British source that gave the weights in 'London hundredweights', which I converted at a rate of 51 kilos per hundredweight.)

This difference in weights was in keeping with the German Army's philosophy of providing horse artillery units with a somewhat lighter field piece that fired the same ammunition as the field piece issued to field artillery units.

The 75mm Krupp mountain guns sold to the Ottoman Army used a shell that was much lighter (5 kilos or so) than that fired by the 75mm field gun. The velocity of this shell, moreover, was much less than that of a field gun shell. When combined with the difficulty that pack animals would have keeping up with cavalry and the problem of assembling the mountain gun before firing, this fact makes it extremely unlikely that mountain guns would be issued to horse artillery batteries, at least under normal circumstances.

Thus, though I don't have access to detailed orders of battle for Ottoman cavalry units, I suspect that the 75mm gun issued to horse artillery batteries would have been the "light" version of the Krupp 75mm field gun.

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Post by adolpheit » 04 Nov 2006 11:17

Hoplophile wrote:In 1910 or so, Krupp sold two types of field guns that fired the 6.5 kilo 75mm shell used by the Ottoman Army - one that weighed 1071 kilos and one that weighed 995 kilos. (The weights are rough, as I am converting from a British source that gave the weights in 'London hundredweights', which I converted at a rate of 51 kilos per hundredweight.)

This difference in weights was in keeping with the German Army's philosophy of providing horse artillery units with a somewhat lighter field piece that fired the same ammunition as the field piece issued to field artillery units.

The 75mm Krupp mountain guns sold to the Ottoman Army used a shell that was much lighter (5 kilos or so) than that fired by the 75mm field gun. The velocity of this shell, moreover, was much less than that of a field gun shell. When combined with the difficulty that pack animals would have keeping up with cavalry and the problem of assembling the mountain gun before firing, this fact makes it extremely unlikely that mountain guns would be issued to horse artillery batteries, at least under normal circumstances.

Thus, though I don't have access to detailed orders of battle for Ottoman cavalry units, I suspect that the 75mm gun issued to horse artillery batteries would have been the "light" version of the Krupp 75mm field gun.

Great!
I'm looking for data of this Turkish horse artillery gun! Please can you tell me the delailed dato of both field and horse artillery gun.
AFIK in 1912 Turkish Army ordered some batteries of a lighter Krupp gun. They arrived only at the end of Balkan War. Previously horse artillery batteries used the standard Krupp field gun without the seats for the gunners and some other equipments in order to made it lighter.

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Post by Hoplophile » 04 Nov 2006 14:58

I'm afraid that I only have fragmentary data for the two Krupp field guns that I mentioned. For the sake of simplicity, I will use the English measurements given by my source, Bethell, Modern Guns and Gunnery, (Woolwich: 1910), pp. 314 and 324.

Model.....................M1910 ("Heavy")................ M1910 ("Light").................M1904

Calibre......................3-inch..............................3-inch...............................2.95-inch
Weight of Shell..........14.3 pounds.....................14.3 pounds......................14 pounds
Muzzle Velocity.........1,800 feet per second.......1,640 feet per second.........1,590 feet per second
Length of barrel..........30 calibers.......................not given...........................30 calibers.
Recoil Mechanism......spring............................. spring................................spring
Weight in action..........21 hundredweight.............19.5 hundredweight.............19.4 hundredweight

A "hundredweight" is 112 pounds or, roughly 50.8 kilos.

The figures supplied for the 1910 models are for the "factory standard" versions. I strongly suspect that guns of these types supplied to the Ottoman Army would have been in 2.95-inch (75mm) caliber rather than the "factory standard" 3-inch (76.2 mm) caliber. I also suspect that the pieces supplied to the Ottoman Empire would have used the same shell (14 pound/6.35 kilo) used by the Model 1904 field guns that Krupp had previously sold to the Ottoman Army.

If these assumptions are true, then the "light" version of the Model 1910 field gun was much closer in weight and other characteristics to the Model 1904 field gun already in service with Ottoman field batteries. Thus, the change that takes place when the Ottoman Army places its order for the two types of Model 1910 guns is less a matter of buying a light gun for the horse aritllery than of buying a heavy gun for some of its field batteries.

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Post by adolpheit » 04 Nov 2006 18:50

Many thanks. This is very interesting. Among the differences between the various models there is the sight. The Turkish Krupp field gun originally was equipped only with plain arc sight. An improved model obtained improved sights on the model of those on the Schneider-Creusot guns. It is also stated that subsequently a also panorama sight was introduced.

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Post by Hoplophile » 04 Nov 2006 19:28

Loebell's Jahresberichte, 1912, p. 398 gives the model numbers of the 75mm Krupp field guns purchased by the Ottoman Army as "1904, 1909 and 1911."

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Post by adolpheit » 04 Nov 2006 19:40

That book seems a real gold mine. Can you explain me briefly what it is?
Thanks

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Post by Hoplophile » 04 Nov 2006 22:41

Here is the description of the book, courtesy of the British Library

Bethell, Henry Arthur, Modern Guns and Gunnery, 1910 / [3rd edition.] (Woolwich : F. J. Cattermole, 1910.)

The book is actually a collection of articles, most of which had previously been published elsewhere. It seems to have sold well, as I got my copy for a reasonable price from a used book dealer.

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Re: TURKISH WW1 Artillery.

Post by Pavel Novak » 09 Nov 2006 23:35

adolpheit wrote: c] Austrian guns delivered during the WW1
7,5cm M. 15 Gebirgskanone Skoda (144 guns)
7cm M. 99 Gebirgskanone Skoda (20 guns)
10.5cm M. 16 Gebirgshaubitze Skoda (40 howitzers)
15cm Feldhaubitze M. 14 Skoda (12 howitzers)
Hallo
just small detail 7cm M. 99 Gebirgskanone is NOT product of Skoda.

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Re: TURKISH WW1 Artillery.

Post by bobcatotago » 19 Nov 2008 23:58

Greetings from New Zealand

I am the former owner of a Turkish 75mm Feldkanone modell 1903 L/30 Nr 488, manufactured by Fried. Krupp AG Essen and captured by 1/1 Warwickshire Yeomanry Regiment at Huj on 8 November 1917. This gun is now on display in the Warwickshire Yeomanry Regimental Museum located in the basement of the Old Court House, Warwick, England.

Other First World War Turkish trophy guns which have survived in New Zealand include at least two further 75mm Feldkanone modell 1903 L/30, one 75mm Feldkanone modell 1910, and a Skoda mountain gun captured by the New Zealand Mounted Rifles Brigade.

I can provide photographs of these weapons if anyone is interested.

Cheers

Aaron Fox

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Re: TURKISH WW1 Artillery.

Post by bobcatotago » 15 Jan 2009 21:03

Attached, an image of the Turkish 75mm M'03 L/30 Nr 488 on display in the Huj Room of the Warwickshire Yeomanry Regimental Museum, Warwick.
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Re: TURKISH WW1 Artillery.

Post by Tosun Saral » 16 Jan 2009 22:14

Aaron wellcome to the forum.Greetings to New Zeeland from Turkey. Please send your gun photos to the following forum:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=109440

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Re: TURKISH WW1 Artillery.

Post by adolpheit » 09 Nov 2009 22:53

I was able to made a more complete (and hope more correct) list of the guns bought by the Turkish Army from 1861 to 1914.
1861 : 1 - 9cm (9,15cm L/22) Krupp FK
1863 : 48 - 9cm (9,15cm L/22) Krupp FK
1864
48 - 8cm (7,85cm L/25) Krupp FK
12 - 9cm (9,15cm L/22) Krupp FK
1867 : 48 - 9cm (9,15cm L/22) Krupp FK
1868 : 127 - 8cm (7,85cm L/25) Krupp FK
1870
78 - 8cm (7,85cm L/25) Krupp FK
10 - 9cm (9,15cm L/22) Krupp FK
1871
8 - 8cm (7,85cm L/25) Krupp FK
170 - 9cm 9,15cm L/22) Krupp FK
1873
214 - 8cm (7,85cm L/25) Krupp FK
120 - 9cm (9,15cm L/22) Krupp FK
120 - 12cm Krupp RK L/24
50 - 15cm Krupp RK L/14
230 - 15cm Krupp RK L/26
28 - 21cm Krupp RK L/22
50 - 24cm Krupp RK L/22
10 - 26cm Krupp RK L/22
12 - 28cm Krupp RK L/21
1874
178 - 8cm (7,85cm L/25) Krupp FK
1 - 8cm (7,5cm L/27) Krupp FK C/73
52 - 9cm (9,15cm L/22) Krupp FK
1875
100 - 7,5cm L/27 Krupp FK C/73
100 - 8,7cm L/24 Krupp FK C/73
1 - 35,5cm L/22 Krupp K
1885
39 - 7,5cm L/27 Krupp FK C/80
389 - 8,7cm L/24 Krupp FK C/80
20 - 12cm L/6,3 Krupp Ms
20 - 15cm L/6,4 Krupp Ms
20 - 21cm L/6,4 Krupp Ms
22 - 24cm L/35 Krupp K C/80
7 - 35,5cm L/35 Krupp K C/80
1886
20 - 7,5cm L/27 Krupp FK C/80
404 - 8,7cm L/24 Krupp FK C/80
2 - 10,7cm L/20 Krupp sFK
10 - 24cm L/35 Krupp K C/80
4 - 37cm L/35 Krupp SK
1893
6 - 7,5cm L/13 Krupp GbK
72 - 12cm L/11,6 Krupp FHb
1896
2 - 3,7cm L/20 Krupp Revolver-K
2 - 15cm L/40 Krupp SK
1897 : 12 - 10,5cm L/35 Krupp FstK C/80 [war trophies, taken during the War against Greece]
1898 : 1 - 7,5cm Krupp L/30
1901
1 field gun, 1 mountain gun, and 1 - 10,5cm light howitzer were ordered to the French firm St.Chamond for experiences, but the order was not accepted because it was judged "insignificant"
1902
6 - 5,7cm L/40 Krupp SK
7 - 12cm L/40 SK Krupp C/00
15 - 15cm L/40 Krupp SK
4 - 21cm L/40 SK Krupp C/00
1903
2 - 7,5cm L/6,4 Krupp GbMs
96 - 7,5cm L/30 Krupp FK C/03
1904
10 - 3,7cm L/20 Krupp Revolver-K
6 - 4,7cm L/40 Krupp SK C/97
30 - 5,7cm L/40 Krupp SK
8 - 7,5cm L/14 Krupp GbK
18 - 7,5cm L/40 Krupp SK C/97
5 - 10,5cm L/40 Krupp SK
1905
12 - 3,7cm L/20 Krupp Revolver-K
12 - 5,7cm L/40 Krupp SK
462 - 7,5cm L/30 Krupp FK C/03
138 - 7,5cm L/14 Krupp GbK
18 - 10,5cm L/30 Krupp Belagerungs-K
18 - 15cm L/14 Krupp Hb
1906 : 4 - 3,7cm L/20 Krupp Revolver-K
1907 : 4 - 3,7cm L/20 Krupp Revolver-K
1908 : 108 - 7,5cm L/16,7 Schneider-Canet GbK MD2 T
1910
8 - 5,7cm L/40 Krupp SK
90 - 7,5cm L/30 Krupp FK C/09
4 - 7,5cm L/16 Rheinmetall GbK M. 1910 (trial guns)
8 - 7,5cm L/50 Krupp SK
1911
88 - 7,5cm L/30 Krupp FK C/11
2 - 10cm L/12 Krupp GbH zarlegbare (two trial guns of different model)
19121 - 7,5cm L/28 Krupp BaK
1 - 7,5cm L/30 Krupp BaK
52 - 7,5cm L/31,4 Schneider-Canet FK PD 2 [Serbian guns seized in 1912 at Salonika]
4 - 15cm L/14 H
1913
18 - 10,5cm L/12 Krupp Hb
36 - 15cm L/10,5cm Krupp sFHb
1914
54 - 7,5cm L/30 FK
12 - 10.5 cm L/18 Skoda FHb M.14 T

According with GENELKURMAY HARP TARİHİ BAŞKANLIĞI : Türk Silahli Kuvvetleri Tarihi III Cilt, 6 Kisim (1908-1920), Ankara : Basimevi 1971, p. 444, in late the Turkish Arsenal (Tophane) manufactured :
450 - 7,5cm L/13 GbK
130 - 8,7cm L/24 FK
100 - 12cm L/11,6 FHb
20 - 15cm L/14 Hb
12 - 7,5cm L/30 FK
16 - 7,5cm L/14 GbK

They were all replicas of Krupp guns. I think the number is too hight expecially for QF guns/howitzers, since Jonathan GRANT, “The Sword of the Sultan: Ottoman Arms Imports, 1854-1914”, The Journal of Military History, Vol. 66, No. 1. (Jan., 2002), pp. 25-26 says that : "In the years 1902 and 1903 the Turks attempted to manufacture six quick-fire field guns on the Krupp model presented by the Kaiser [1898], but Tophane’s production proceeded rather slowly owing to want of funds”.
According with Das Militärwesen in seiner Entiwickelung während der 25 Jahre 1874 – 1898 als Jubiläumsband der v. Löbell’schen Jahresberichte. Berlin: Ernst Siegfried Mittler und Sohn 1890, Erster Theil, p. the Arsenal manufactured 96 – 7cm GbK system Krupp, but it supposed that 200 more mountain guns had been manufactured.
According with the Bulgarian official history of the Balkan War I, p. 262 the Arsenal manufactured, besides the mountain guns, only 69 - 12cm L/11.6 howitzers (instead of 100).

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Re: TURKISH WW1 Artillery.

Post by CharlieC » 17 Jan 2010 06:13

First post on this forum....

A large number of Turkish guns were captured by Australian forces in Palestine in 1918 - many of these were returned to Australia as trophy guns and distributed to towns around Australia to act as war memorials.

Many of these guns have been lost since WW1 but a fair number survive. I'm running a project to document the surviving guns around Queensland - the results of this project can be seen at http://www.ammsbrisbane.com/documentation.htm. Eventually this project will merge with an national project to document all surviving guns in Australia. As well as 7.5cm M1903 Krupp guns and older C73 guns and a number of other gun types we've turned up a couple which we can't identify.

The first is a gun at Mt Morgan in Central Queensland - it's recorded as a 95mm smooth bore gun - any ideas?

Regards,

Charlie
mt_morgan_1.jpg
mt_morgan_2.jpg
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