Schneider Field Guns Purchased for the Ottoman Army

Hoplophile · Post by **Hoplophile** » 23 Oct 2006 05:33

Does anyone know if any 75mm field guns were purchased from Schneider by the Ottoman Army prior to World War I? I am specifically interested in field guns of the ordinary sort (rather than mountain guns) and purchases (rather than captures.)

I know that, just prior to the war of 1912, the Ottoman authorities in Salonika confiscated a number of Schneider field guns that were being shipped to Serbia. I suspect, moreover, that a number of Schneider field guns were captured from the Greeks, Serbs and/or Bulgarians in 1912 or 1913. I do not know, however, if the Ottoman authorites actually bought 75mm field guns directly from the Schneider company.

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 23 Oct 2006 14:23

Guns captured in Salonika pier stayed there until Greeks liberated the town.
After that, guns were forwarded to intended users. (Serbia)

Turkey lost First Balkan War and almost all its territories in Europe - so I suppose they were kinda short of captured enemy artillery at the end of war.

Except 75mm mountain guns, I don't know any sort of artillery obtained by Turkey until WWI started. (Maybe they ordered some, however - there was a lot of Schneider and St. Chamond commercial guns seized by French military at the start of WWI - later labeled "Mle 1914")

In late 1920s Turkey purchased lot of Artillery from France - 105mm field howitzers, 155 mm C17S heavy howitzers and 155 mm L18S guns.

adolpheit · Post by **adolpheit** » 23 Oct 2006 15:07

I agree with The Edge. I know him and I know he is always very accurate (expecially about Serbian/Jugoslavian Army). But about Turkish 75mm Schneider field guns there is some problem. Many sources (for instance Handbook of the Turkish Army. February 1916, but also Tosun Saral in http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=109530) states that in 1914 Turkish Army had 52 75mm Schneider field guns. This is a point that must be examinated more closely. Perhaps our Turkish friends have the answer.

Tosun Saral · Post by **Tosun Saral** » 23 Oct 2006 19:00

According to the book of Col. Süleyman Şakir, the commanding officer of the 6th Inf. Div. at Gallipoli "Cepheden hatıralar, Altıncı Fırka Çanakkale harbi'nde" (Memories From The Front, 6th Div. at gallipoli) p.245 the 6th Schneider Regiment was attached to the Div. The commander of the Regiment was Major Arif Bey.
On Turkish time June 7th 1331 (1915) the 6th R. had:
1st Redoupt 1. battary
1st Field 2. Battery
2nd redoupt 4. battery
2nd Field 5. battery
3rd Redoupt 7. battery
Mountain 8. Battery
The number of guns are not given in the book
You may find a color photo of a Schneider in my posting Turkish Artillary.

Nikolay · Post by **Nikolay** » 23 Oct 2006 19:55

The Edge wrote:Guns captured in Salonika pier stayed there until Greeks liberated the town.
After that, guns were forwarded to intended users. (Serbia)

Turkey lost First Balkan War and almost all its territories in Europe - so I suppose they were kinda short of captured enemy artillery at the end of war.

In the Balkan war the Bulgarian artilerry didn't have any guns captured by the Ottoman army. There was a number of guns that were hit and out of service, but none was captured. About the Serbian or Greek armies I don't know, suppose they didn't have either.
By the way today is the 94th anniversary of the battle of Lozengrad, and tomorrow is the one of the battle of Kumanovo. Two of the greatest victories of Bulgarian and Serbian armies.

adolpheit · Post by **adolpheit** » 23 Oct 2006 21:38

Tosun Saral wrote:According to the book of Col. Süleyman Şakir, the commanding officer of the 6th Inf. Div. at Gallipoli "Cepheden hatıralar, Altıncı Fırka Çanakkale harbi'nde" (Memories From The Front, 6th Div. at gallipoli) p.245 the 6th Schneider Regiment was attached to the Div. The commander of the Regiment was Major Arif Bey.
On Turkish time June 7th 1331 (1915) the 6th R. had:
1st Redoupt 1. battary
1st Field 2. Battery
2nd redoupt 4. battery
2nd Field 5. battery
3rd Redoupt 7. battery
Mountain 8. Battery
The number of guns are not given in the book
You may find a color photo of a Schneider in my posting Turkish Artillary.

Very interesting: AFIK the artillery regiments armed with Schneider guns were 4th (with five batteries), 5th (with 4 batteries and 2 mountain batteries) and 6th (with 4 batteries and 2 mountain batteries). Unfortunately I don't remembere where I found this information. Probably in British Handbook of the Turkish Army or in another English book.

Tosun Saral · Post by **Tosun Saral** » 23 Oct 2006 22:52

I thank dear Friend Nikolay that you let me to remember a tragic event again. If we get lessons from the past we don't do it again.

Kumanova Battle:
Againts the Serbian Armies there were 5th, 6th and 7th Turkish ACs and a cavalry division. Some units of the 6th AC was watching the advancing Bulgarians from the direction Sofia. The number of Turkish forces were less then Serbians and Bulgarians. But they had powerful guns. Turkish Artillary was better then the enemy The missery in the Turkish army was in their commanding class. Commanding Officers were all members of different political parties. Most of the Commanding officers had no military education. They were simply soldiers who promoted in passing years to Pashas. However at the first day of the fight they stroke the enemy hard, coused high casulties and stopped them. As the night fall the fights stopped. many officers was made Pasha for their good fight. Those new Pashas left their positions and went to Kumanova city for new Pasha dresses with red pasha lines on their toursers. Serps suddenly attacked. Turks reteated to Manastir/Bittola.
Turks lost the battle at Manastir in Nov.14/18 1912.

I am a Macedonian Turk from Manastir.
My Sanjack:Serfice (in Greece)
My Kaza: Kozana(Kozani in Greece)
My dorf : Sofular (Kapnohori in Greece)
We lost Kozana in Oct.24 1912

Rumeli'nin daglari var
Ne guzeldir simdi aglar
Aglama sen garip vatan
Biz geliriz yine inan.

Rumelia have mountains
They are beautiful but crying
Don't cry you beloved fatherland
Believe us we will came again.

http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/7d696/

sourse: A very little summary from My late brother Osman Yavuz Saral's book " Kaybettigimiz Rumeli (Rumelia That We Lost) p.168

Nikolay · Post by **Nikolay** » 24 Oct 2006 08:21

Tosun Saral wrote: Kumanova Battle:
As the night fall the fights stopped. many officers was made Pasha for their good fight. Those new Pashas left their positions and went to Kumanova city for new Pasha dresses with red pasha lines on their toursers. Serps suddenly attacked. Turks reteated to Manastir/Bittola.

I have never heard that beautiful legend before. It is a very, very good one.

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 24 Oct 2006 11:15

Tosun, there are numerous accounts from 1912 War of Turkish artillery being more effective than Serbian one - in most cases Serbs were in offensive, so their artillery was behind advancing troops, late to deploy, fire control was also weak - usually each battery support the nearest infantry unit, not the most engaged one. Turkish guns, from already prepared positions, usually put fire on most advanced enemy unit, with a good effect.

At the battle of Kumanovo Turkish attack catch Serbs off-guard. They expected that Turks will take defencive posture in front of Skoplje. Their artillery was also not deployed near front - basically unprepared to fight the battle. So this first day Serbs managed to survive by the skin on their teeth (losing some ground). Serbian Army HQ was miles behind and wasn't involved in this day developments at all!

However, only two of Serbian divisions were engaged this day. Total strength of Serbian First Army was FIVE divisions plus Cavalry division, so Turkish delight and claims of "Victory" were prematured one. Next day started with renewed Turkish attacks, but facing more and more advancing Serbian troops, they soon went to defence. Not suprisingly, their line broke about midday (their already lesser numerical strength diminished more during night, when Albanian conscripts deserted en masse, informed that Serbian Third Army captured Prishtina).

Final analysis showed that Turks made a strategical mistake in Kumanovo (much the same for whole campaign) for going into offence at the start of war, with overwhelming numbers of Balkan Allies side against them. In Kumanovo case, good defencive positions north of Skoplje was wasted for a careless attack. Soldiers of all nations showed great devotion and fighting spirit, but bigger number of trained officers and NCOs on Allies side also took its tool.

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 24 Oct 2006 11:49

adolpheit wrote:I agree with The Edge. I know him and I know he is always very accurate (expecially about Serbian/Jugoslavian Army). But about Turkish 75mm Schneider field guns there is some problem. Many sources (for instance Handbook of the Turkish Army. February 1916, but also Tosun Saral in http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=109530) states that in 1914 Turkish Army had 52 75mm Schneider field guns. This is a point that must be examinated more closely. Perhaps our Turkish friends have the answer.

Your data - 108 pcs of 75mm Schneider mountain guns - is little high for such specialized equipment.

Maybe this number also include field guns?

adolpheit · Post by **adolpheit** » 24 Oct 2006 14:36

Your data - 108 pcs of 75mm Schneider mountain guns - is little high for such specialized equipment. Maybe this number also include field guns?

Every source I have states that Turkey bought 27 batteries (108) Schneider mountain guns. Yes, it is really a great number of pack guns, but Turkey had to fight in broken terrain in many theater (Mesopotamia, Palestina and expecially Caucasus).

adolpheit · Post by **adolpheit** » 24 Oct 2006 14:42

In the Balkan war the Bulgarian artilerry didn't have any guns captured by the Ottoman army. There was a number of guns that were hit and out of service, but none was captured. About the Serbian or Greek armies I don't know, suppose they didn't have either.

AFIK Ottoman Army capture a dozen of Bulgaria heavy guns in Odrin in 1913, during the Interallied War. Is it correct?
Do you know how many guns Bulgaria lost (captured or destroyed by ennemy fire or by accident) during Balkan and Interallied Wars?

MCP

Hoplophile · Post by **Hoplophile** » 24 Oct 2006 22:42

Many thanks to all who answered my question. You are all very kind.

By the way, I once read somewhere (but I can't remember where) that some of the Schneider guns intended for Serbia (but seized by the Ottoman authorities at Salonika), were used by Ottoman forces at Adrianople.

Tosun Saral · Post by **Tosun Saral** » 25 Oct 2006 19:18

http://images.google.com.tr/imgres?imgu ... D%26sa%3DG

Two Balkan War guns exibited at the garden of Sukru Pasha Museum at the Yikik Tabya the ruined fortifivation in Edirne
You will find the images by pointing on "Muzeler ve anitlar" then "Sükrü Paşa Aniti ve Balkan Savaşları"

Nikolay · Post by **Nikolay** » 25 Oct 2006 21:45

adolpheit wrote:
In the Balkan war the Bulgarian artilerry didn't have any guns captured by the Ottoman army. There was a number of guns that were hit and out of service, but none was captured. About the Serbian or Greek armies I don't know, suppose they didn't have either.
AFIK Ottoman Army capture a dozen of Bulgaria heavy guns in Odrin in 1913, during the Interallied War. Is it correct?
Do you know how many guns Bulgaria lost (captured or destroyed by ennemy fire or by accident) during Balkan and Interallied Wars?

MCP

Indeed, but these were originally Ottoman army guns, captured by the Bulgarians in March 1913 and recaptured by the Ottomans in July 1913. No "originally Bulgarian" guns were lost to the Ottoman army. In the Second Balkan war folowing number of guns were lost:

quickfiring 75mm Shneider guns: 12 captured by Rumanians, 20 captured by Greeks, 20 captured by the Serbs. Another 15 were damaged beyond repair.

not quickfiring 75mm and 87mm Krupp guns: 47 captured by Greeks, 12 captured by the Serbs. Another 5 were damaged beyond repair.

120mm Haubitzers: 4 captured by the Greeks

quickfiring 75mm mountain Shneider guns: 4 captured by Rumanians

not quickfiring 75mm mountain guns: 4 captured by Rumanians.

This is from a report of the Artillerry inspector of the Army -general Tzenov, published in 1914 in several newspapers. Because of it several months later Tzenov was put in trial for revealing classified information.

Regards