El Burj, 1 December 1917

Bill Woerlee · Post by **Bill Woerlee** » 29 Dec 2006 02:40

Mates

I suspect that Tosun or Andrew might have the answer but I will make this a general question.

At the El Burj assault which began at 1.20am, 1 December 1917, a battalion from the 19th Division. The battalion was cut to ribbons with the rump surrendering at about 5.30am that same morning. Included in the capture was a German Lieutenant Colonel and Medical Officer.

I am just wondering if we have a record of the name of:

1. the particular battalion that took part in the assault;

2. the German Lieutenant Colonel captured; and

3. the commander of the 19th Division at the time.

Thanks in advance

Cheers

Bill

stevebecker · Post by **stevebecker** » 29 Dec 2006 23:33

Bill,

I have been unable to coinfirm the details you are after also.

One thing does bother me about this action was a statement in the Britsh War History page 235 which said "The Battalion, 600 strong, was almost wiped out".

The account gives surrender of 25 soldiers to Lt Boughey 4 RSF and the latter the surrender of six officers and 106 men and over one hundred dead were left on the field (British Offical History)

While the Australian Offical History page 508 has that the Bn was 500 men and six officers and 112 men including a Bn commander were captured. no mention of him being a hun?

Now my numbers don't add up to any wiping out of this Bn, but it must have been hit hard.

Of cause did this Bn have 600 or 500 men in the first place.

Cheers

S.B

Bill Woerlee · Post by **Bill Woerlee** » 31 Dec 2006 07:33

Steve

G'day mate

Here is the 9th LHR WD account of the ending of the attack at El Burj.

About 0530 the 8th Light Horse Regiment moved forward and the remaining Turks about 100 strong surrendered including a German Lieutenant Colonel Commanding Officer of the attacking battalion. Many rifles and automatic rifles and bombs were captured from enemy. Estimated enemy dead 200 whilst 300 enemy wounded had passed previously through the Turkish dressing station.

If you add the numbers, it comes to 600 men. You will also see mention of the German officer.

This is what the 3rd LH Bde WD says:

This party surrendered and 105 unwounded prisoners were captured and with them being the Commanding Officer of the Battalion.

In complete contrast, here is the 11th LHR unit history account:

Though outnumbered 5 to 1 the Victorians stood grimly to their post, holding the enemy at bay until men of the Gloucester Regiment and the Scottish Fusiliers arrived. Going in with bayonet and bomb the combined force, though still outnumbered, routed the Turks, who tried vainly to escape towards the flanks of the attacking force. This movement was checkmated by the 9th Regiment on the left, and by this Regiment on the right. At dawn the Turkish survivors, numbering 6 officers and 212 other ranks, threw down their arms and surrendered. More than 100 of the enemy were killed and 60 were wounded.

Of course, this contrasts with the OBWH account:

Australians, Scotsmen, and Yeomen held their position till dawn, when it was found that the attacking force was at their mercy, since its retreat was barred by a barrage laid down by the machine guns of the 3rd L.H. Brigade. Six officers and 106 other ranks surrendered, while over one hundred dead were found upon the ground. The prisoners belonged to the Storm Battalion of the 19th Division. They had proved themselves troops of high quality, and were far better equipped than most Turkish troops at this period, wearing shrapnel helmets and carrying 1917 Mausers. The battalion, 600 strong, was almost annihilated.

Finally, here is Gullett's account:

The little composite British force remained on the hilltop until dawn, when the Turkish survivors, numbering six officers, including a battalion commander, and 112 other ranks, surrendered. More than 100 enemy dead lay close up to Crawford's sangars, and sixty wounded were collected, most of them badly mutilated by the point-blank fire. Captain Fay and Lieutenant S. V. Moore and five other ranks of the 8th Light Horse were killed, and two officers and thirty-five other ranks wounded; while the Scots had one officer and one man killed and two wounded, and the yeomanry three men wounded. The booty included large quantities of hand-grenades and eight automatic rifles. It was afterwards learned that the attacking force was a battalion of storm-troops," selected in Galicia from the 19th and 20th Divisions, and specially trained by German officers.

The accounts are a dog's dinner.

Cheers

Bill

Bill Woerlee · Post by **Bill Woerlee** » 08 Jan 2007 01:51

Just to give the composition of the two divisions mentioned in Gullett:

19th Division 57th (Hamli Bey), 72nd (Munir Bey) & 77th Regts (Said Bey) consisting of 9 Battalions and the 19th Field Artillery Regiment; &,
20th Division 61st, 62nd & 63rd Regts consisting of 9 Battalions

Thanks to all who have helped.

Cheers

Bill

drewsart · Post by **drewsart** » 08 Jan 2007 03:22

Hi Bill

Just to add a little more detail to your OOB's

19th Turkish Division - I have Colonel Sedat Bey (Doğruer) then Colonel Sabit Bey (Karaman) commanding.
57th Regiment - Hamli Bey, 1/57th Bn, 2/57th Bn, 3/57th Bn, 57th Regt MG Coy
72nd Regiment - Munir Bey, 1/72nd Bn, 2/72nd Bn, 3/72nd Bn, 1/72nd MG Coy, 2/72nd MG Coy
77th Regiment - Said Bey, 1/77th Bn, 2/77th Bn, 3/77th Bn,

19th Division Artillery
1/19th Field Artillery batty – (4 x 77mm QF)
2/19th Field Artillery batty – (4 x 77mm QF)
3/19th Field Artillery batty (4 x Older Guns 75mm – not QF)
4/19th Field Artillery batty (4 x Older Guns 75mm – not QF)
1M/19th Mountain Artillery batty (6 x 75mm mountain Howitzers)
2M/19th Mountain Artillery batty (6 x 75mm mountain Howitzers)

19th Division, Divisional Assets
19th Division Engineer Coy
19th Division Field Hospital
5th Sqn 4th Cavalry Regiment

20th Division,- I have Lieutenant Colonel Veysel Bey (Özgür) commanding.
61st Regiment, 1/61st Bn, 2/61st Bn, 3/61st Bn, 4/61st Bn, 61st Regt MG Coy
62nd Regiment, 1/62nd Bn, 2/62nd Bn, 3/62nd Bn, 4/26nd Bn,
63rd Regiment, 1/63rd Bn, 2/63rd Bn, 3/63rd Bn, 4/63rd Bn,

20th Division Artillery,
1/20th Field Artillery batty – (4 x 77mm QF)
2/20th Field Artillery batty – (4 x 77mm QF)
3/20th Field Artillery batty (4 x 77mm QF)
4/20th Field Artillery batty (4 x 77mm QF)

20th Division, Divisional Assets,
20th Division Engineer Coy
20th Division Signal Section
20th Division Field Hospital
3rd Sqn 12th Cavalry Regiment

Regards
Andrew

drewsart · Post by **drewsart** » 08 Jan 2007 03:30

Again Hi Bill

The source i have for the commanders is http://www.turkeyswar.com/ , a turkish military site owned and opearated by Altay Atlı Editor - Turkeyswar.com and friend of Tosun Saral plus the other information from sources i have previously mentioned in other posts

Andrew

Tosun Saral · Post by **Tosun Saral** » 08 Jan 2007 10:51

Is El Burj "Sivri Tepe" as we Turks call?

According to Görgülü's book p.146
The Situation at the Syrian and Palastina Front (Oct-December 1917)
XVth AC:Brigadier Ali Rıza Pasha (Sedes)
-19th Div.: Lt. Col. Sedat (Lt. Gen. Doğruer) (x)
chief of staff:Maj. Ömer Lütfi
--57th R.:Maj. Kadri
--72th R.:Maj. Rıfat
--77th R.:Lt. Col. Saip

(x) Col. Sami Sabit (Maj. Gen. Karaman) took the 19th Div. over at May 1918.(p.151)

The names of high ranking German officers at the order of Yıldırım during Oct. Dec. 1917
Chief of staff of Yıldırım:Col.Dommez
chief of staff of 7th Army: Maj.Falkenhausen
commander of 24th Div.:Lt. Col. Wilmer (oder Willmer)
8th Army: von Kress Pasha
staff officer at the 8th Army HQ:Lt. Col. Herrgott
chieff operations officer of 8th Army:Maj. Wolf
artillary advisor of 8th Army:Lt. Col.Moderow
54th Div.:Vol. von Kiesling
Asia Corps:Col. Frankenberg
chief of staff:Maj. Solger
-703th Inf. Bttn.: Capt. Grasmann
702nd Inf. Battn.:Maj. Merts
701:Maj. Staubwasser
701st artillary Battn:Maj.Hechtern

German Officers at HQ of Yıldırım:
Maj. von Papen (Later German Kanzler before Hitler and german Ambassador to Ankara during WW2)
2nd Lt. Count von Pohler
2nd Lt. Count von Kanik
Lt. Vedenayer
asst chief of staff:Maj. Ludlof
Lt. Müller
railway officer: capt.Gronevalt
" " Capt. Fots
information officers:Capt.Lübke, Capt. vonKamps Höffner
Personal officer. Capt. von Groben
Artillary officer: Maj.Ostrovski
signal officers.Capt. Schmit, Lt. Wolf
Air company commander:Capt. von Homskerk
maps officer:capt.Andre
commander of the company at HQ :Maj. von Falkenhayn (brother of field marschal)
asst.:Capt. von Ernstein
supply officer: Dr. Yakops
translater: Lt.Ritter
Chief medical officer: Brigadier Dr. Steuber

Tosun Saral · Post by **Tosun Saral** » 08 Jan 2007 22:39

Lt. Gen. Sedat Dogruer
Army Serial Number: P/Inf.1317(1901)-30
Maj. Gen.:1926, Lt. Gen.: 1930
Retired:Sep. 28th 1942

He was class mate of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk from the class 1901

drewsart · Post by **drewsart** » 08 Jan 2007 22:42

Good morning gentlemen

Tosun, it is most interesting that you have different regimental commanders than I for the 19th Division - but I must bow to your expertise here as I figure your resources are more true and accurate than mine published outside Turkey.

Do you have the regimental commanders names for the 20th Division at this time

Andrew

Tosun Saral · Post by **Tosun Saral** » 08 Jan 2007 22:47

Major General Sami Sabit
Army Serial Number: Sv./Cavalry 1312(1896)-10
Maj. Gen.:1923
Retired:Sept.28th 1931

Tosun Saral · Post by **Tosun Saral** » 08 Jan 2007 23:08

Good Night Gentlemen it is 23.56 hours in Ankara
20th Division:
In Galizia July 1916-August 1917 Yasin Hilmi ( the 20th left Galizia ay August 16th and arrived at Istanbul in Sept. 26.)
61 R.:, 62, 63 and artillary R.
During July-September - October-December 1917 at gazze, birüssebi,Damascus and Yafa (Görgülü p.146)and Seria Battles Col. Yasin Hilmi commanded the division (Görgülü p.150) He became commander of 8th AC during the Nablus fights. He was an Syrian Arap. After fall of Damascus he went to the British and played an important role in the new arap state.
commander Lt. Col. Veysel (Özgür) [He commanded the regiment during the fights at Nablus Sept.19/21 1918 and the fights between Sept. 22- Oct.25 1918. During that fights he and his division taken POW]

Tosun Saral · Post by **Tosun Saral** » 08 Jan 2007 23:29

look for 20th Div in this forum :
First World War
List of Commanders during 1st & 2nd Gazze Battles
Tosun Saral 6 456 19 Aug 2006 04:31

drewsart · Post by **drewsart** » 09 Jan 2007 00:16

Thanks Tosun i will look at the posts on the 20th

Andrew

Bill Woerlee · Post by **Bill Woerlee** » 11 Jan 2007 02:03

Tosun

Thank you very much for the additional information mate. It is just wonderful.

I wonder if I can stretch you a little further to establish the battalion name that was attached to the 19th Div at El Burj.

I have attached a map of the area for your reference.

Thanks again.

Cheers

Bill

Bill Woerlee · Post by **Bill Woerlee** » 11 Jan 2007 02:12

Tosun

This is the location of El Burj in relation to Palestine. The straight lines going from the coast to inland is the trail taken by the 9th LHR from El Medel to El Burj. The circular lines represent the approximate front line.

Cheers

Bill

Axis History Forum

El Burj, 1 December 1917

El Burj, 1 December 1917

composition of the 19th and 20th Turkish Divisions

source for commanders

regimental commanders

advice on the 20th division