Turkish MG Companies

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
stevebecker
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Turkish MG Companies

#1

Post by stevebecker » 23 Jan 2007, 01:48

Mates,

I was informed that a Turkish Regimental MG company, of which there were at lest two to three per division, had four maxin machine guns for most of the war and this didn't change, while another sourse has given me the following;

"The same thing happened to the Turks
Ottoman infantry battalions in infantry divisions in Palestine lost their 4th Company on 28 June 1917 (leaving three coys). They were authorized to activate a machine gun company in place of the missing infantry compay on 1 August 1917.
These are authorizations --- actual MG company activations varied from battalion to battalion based on availability of guns and men. Same with the type of weapon --- it varied, and some battalions had heavy MGs while others had light MGs (some units were even equipped with captured Russian material in 1918).
Also a MG Company was authorized 3 officers, 6 NCOs, 57 men, 12 animals and four guns".

Can you confim that this happened to Turkish Infantry Bn's?

Cheers

S.B

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drewsart
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#2

Post by drewsart » 23 Jan 2007, 05:30

Hi Steve

I am not aware of the turks creating more MG coys towards the end of the war.

As far as I knew they continued as per your first out line - 2 to 3 to a Division with hopefully 4MGs to each.

I will check my sources tonight for you

I would suppose that by the end of the war they may have attempted to field full companies of MG's rather than creating a new ones

Andrew


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#3

Post by Tosun Saral » 23 Jan 2007, 12:15

Source: "Birinci....."
On July 1915 there were only 4 Maxims at 27th Div. of the 4th Army. (elcl.:7)

I give only the MG Companies:
March position of the 1st Exp. Forces: p.368
Commander of the front line:Col. Ibrahim
1st line: 31st Regiment with 1st and 2nd battalions and 1st, 2nd, 3rd MG companies of 1st battalion of 39th Regiment
2nd Line:3rd Btt./32st R. with 4th MG Company.

Main Group. Commander Col Refet 3rd Div.
1st line:Commander Austrian Major von Marno wi,th 5,6,7,8th MG Companies
2nd Line: 32nd R. without MG compani
3rd line:39th R. without MG Company

This position was changed later as following: (p.371)
1st Group:Col. Refet 3rd Div.
Units: 31st R. with 601 and 604th German MG Comanies

2nd Grouop: Col. İbrahim
units: 32nd R. with German 602 and 605th MG C.

3rd Group:Maj. Kamil of the 1st Btt.39th R. with 39th R and 603 and606 German MG Cs

4thy Group: a reserve R established from each 4th Btt of every Regiment with German 607 and 608 th MG Cs.

On August 4th 1916 39th Regiment was taken POW (Maj. kamil and his 500 men) After fighting till last bullet the MG companies destroyed their guns and withdrawed to back lines.

On the morning of August 5th 1916 605th was also taken POW after a short fight. On the same day 606 left their guns and withdrawed to back lines (p.386).

On August 11st 1916 603 was given to the order of 31st R.

At Elaris: The 31st had 3 MG Companies: 601, 603, 604
The 32 R:602, 606, 607 and 608th

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#4

Post by stevebecker » 23 Jan 2007, 23:26

Mates,

Thanks, yes that was my understanding that these companies remained the same or as shown by Tosun had the attachment of a German MG Company.

Tosun

I think he was refering to Turkish Infantry Regts by late 1917 and 1918, do you have the same details for formations in Palestine in September 1918.

Cheers

S.B

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#5

Post by Tosun Saral » 24 Jan 2007, 00:42

I have the book Birinci.... first part in my collaction from the beginnig to 2nd Gazze.
The 2nd part I must go to library and it takes to much time. Sorry.

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increased MG guns

#6

Post by drewsart » 24 Jan 2007, 01:48

Hi Steve

I checked through sources I have access to last night and they concur with your supposition and Tosuns facts - I found no reference to increasing MG Coy’s as 4th Infantry companies were disbanded within formations.

In fact I found that by August of 1917 units were being down sized or broken apart to form new formations. So with the acceptation of attaching some German/Austrian MG formations to companies all other available MG’s were being placed in units to bring those units back up to strength.

Sources:
Von Sanders L, Five years in Turkey, Annapolis, 1927.

Murphy C.C.R. Lt- Colonel, Soldiers of the Prophet, Woolwich, 1921

Erickson E.J. Order to Die, A history of the Ottoman Army in the first world war, London, 2001.

Andrew

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#7

Post by stevebecker » 24 Jan 2007, 09:34

Mates,

Thanks its one of the problems dealing with these sourse where as Allied (British) tend to show the Turks with large numbers of MG's but any close look at the Turks finds that there are no large numbers of MG's in their formations.

So the problem becomes where do these Machine guns come from or in fact were they there at all?

If so the fire power of a Turkish Infantry Platoon/Company must have been more effective then we (British) throught, the mad minute tought to the Pre War British Army where to the Germans in 1914/15 who believed the British to have many MG's in there companies then in fact they did.

What was the teaching of rifle fire control in the Turkish Army, how much training did the average Turkish soldier get in weapons before he was sent off to the front.

If the pre war Turkish Army was destroyed at Gallipoli as the British were in 1914/15 how was it there fire was mistaken for MG Fire?

Of cause I mean fire power not how good that fire was, as all British accounts give that the fire was always very strong but inaccurate.

Cheers

S.B

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#8

Post by Tosun Saral » 16 Feb 2007, 01:39

Source: Lt. Col. Huseyin Husnu Emir (Maj. Gen. Erkilet) Chief of Staff of Yildirim Army Group
The Book: "Yildirim" p. 350

Number of Maxims of the 8th Army in Oct. 1. 1917

units at HQ: 12
HQ 20th AC:
16th Div: 54
26th 68
54th: 54
24th:
Units at HQ 22 AC:
3rd Div.: 59
7th: 60
53 54
136th Inf. Reg:
Sebi Group:
27th Div: 26
3rd Cavalry Div: 16

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#9

Post by stevebecker » 16 Feb 2007, 09:57

Mates,

Tosun, details throws the numbers of MG's in a Div out of sinc with what the Order of Battle shows.

I am unsure how, say the 16th Div could have 54 MG's, if each MG Co had only four MG's? where did the other MG's come from.

Or how good are the Order of Battle figures if the 16th Div had 54 MG's there?

Sorry mates but I am confused here with the figures?

Cheers

S.B

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#10

Post by Tosun Saral » 16 Feb 2007, 12:05

Sorry Steve I can not give you a satisfyable answer. I am the lier of Huseyin Husnu. I wrote what I found in his book. I hope no printing mistake.

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#11

Post by stevebecker » 17 Feb 2007, 02:23

No worries mate,

Its another one we may never know the answer to.

Cheers

S.B

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#12

Post by jwsleser » 11 Mar 2007, 21:58

I thought I had an answer to explain the MG companies, but realized I had transposed the numbers. My brain read what it wanted to read. I deleted my earlier post as it was wrong. I am still trying to figure this one out.

Rather than post a new message, I thught I would edit this one. While researching the 46th Division, I discovered that the MG companies of the 6th Division in March 1917 had respectively 16th - 6; 18th - 6; 1st - 7; and 3rd (from the 2nd Division) - 6. I am now looking for other MG companies to confirm this. Source is the OH volume II part 2 (Irak-Iran).

This could mean that the Ottomans placed 6 MGs in each company.

Jeff.

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Carlos Marighela
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#13

Post by Carlos Marighela » 21 Mar 2007, 03:43

Hi all, new to this forum but the question intrigues me as well.

My supposition as to the mismatch between numbers of guns and the original paper TO&Es is that the TO&ES changed along German lines as the war progressed. The Germans started the war with 6 gun MG coys at regimental level. As the war progressed the Germans increased the numbers of MGs fielded and devolved MG coys down to battalion level as well as creating such things as MG Marksmen battalions etc etc.

It seems to me the most likely answer is that the Turks moved to fielding 6 gun MG coys at btn level. Now leaving aside issue like attrition, spares held etc. This would give you a theoretical, paper MG strength of 18 guns per regiment ( 3 X ^ guns Coys), 3 regiments per battalion and you are looking at 54 MMGs per Division.

If you look at the figues for the Divsions in the Yildirim Army group quoted above you will se that the number for Inf Divs hovers between 54 and 60. Extras are explicable either as spares held on strength or the presence of an extra battalion at the Division ( an extra 6 guns worth).

My tuppence worth ( ok 25 centavos)

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#14

Post by Carlos Marighela » 21 Mar 2007, 03:47

Oops let me correct that. I meant' 3 regiments per division and you are looking at 54 MMGs in total.

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#15

Post by Tosun Saral » 24 Mar 2007, 20:44

Source: Maj. Gen. Hüseyin Hüsnü Emir (Erkilet) gives the following information about MG in his book "Yıldırım" p.112
" the situation in the night of Oct. 30th 1917 at Birü's-Sebi
1- 10 MGs some at front some at reserve was positioned on the west front between Sebi-Tellü'ş-Şeria railway and Sebi Valley.

2- 16 MGs some at front some at reserve positioned at southwest front between Sebi River and Damascus and Pelune Hills.

3- 12 MGs same at front some at resereve positioned on the north of Izmir Hill. on south front along from Şam(Damascus) Hill to the road to Sebi-Hafir to the beginnimg of Valley Vadiü'ş-Şuayb

4- MG company of the 47th Inf. Regt. with 22 MGs positioned as general reserve.

Total:6o

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