Composition of Turkish 41st, 43rd and 44th Divisions

[territoriale]

Thanks again to all the members of the forum who answered my question on the Turkish 42nd Division.

I understand that the 41st, 43rd and 44th Divisions were formed around the same time as the 42nd and were based in the Syria/Lebanon/Palestine region.

Unfortunately the information I have on which infantry regiments they had is uncertain - can anyone confirm what these were at their formation and later on, please?


According to what information I have -

41st Division had the (?) 131st, (?) 132nd, (?) 133rd Infantry regiments

43rd Division had the (?) 135th, (?) 136th & 138th infantry regiments. Apparently the
67th regiment replaced one of 135th or 136th later but I do not
know which one.

44th Division had the (?) 137th, (?) 139th, & 140th Infantry regiments


Thanks,

Martin James

[Tosun Saral]

Mini story of 41th, 43rd and 44th Divisions:

Source:Ismet Gorgulu "On Yillik Harbin Kadrosu 1912-1922" (Personal of Ten Years Old War 1912-1922) published by Ataturk Kultur, Dil ve Tarih Yuksek Kurumu, Turk Tarih Kurumu Yayinları, Ankara 1993 (Turkish History Society)

Reorganization of the 4th Army for the 2nd Canal Expedition June 1917: (p.141)
12nd Army Corps in Damascus. Commander of the AC Maj. Gen. Fahrettin Pasha (Lt. Gen. Turkkan. Last defender of the Holy city Medina. After the armistrace he was arrested by British and deported to Malta with other honourable Turkish officials. He was accused not to surrander and continue to fight after the Armistarace)
41st Division was stationed in Belen commanded by Lt. Col. Mehmet Emin (Gen. Koral) ( If I dont mistake a place in todays Turkish province of Antakya/Hatay(Antioch)
Chief of Staff: Maj. Mumtaz
-- 131st R: Maj. Emin Lutfi
-- 132nd R: Maj.Galip
-- 133rd R. :Maj. Rifat
-- 41st Artillary R: Lt. Col. Asim

43rd Division was stationed at Lebenon/Liban cammanded by Lt. Col. Osman Nuri (Maj. Gen. Koptagel (Look for him at axis)
No R's given

44th Division was stationed at Adana commanded by Lt. Col. Adil (A metropole in Turkey. Capital city of Cilicia)

4th Army After 2nd Canal Expetition, 1st and 2nd Gazze battles (End of 1916-Fist Half of 1917) (p. 143)
3rd Army Corps: Col. Ismet ( Gen.of the Army Inonu, 2nd President of Turkish Republic)

to be continued

[stevebecker]

Mate,

The Turkey in the First World War webb site has these Divisional Commanders;

41st Division Col Cemil Bey (Conk) and LtCol Hüseyin Hüsnü Bey (Alptogan)
131st Regt 132nd Regt 133rd Regt 41st Artillery Regt

42nd Division Colonel Ali Riza Bey
65th Regt 66th Regt 123rd Regt 42nd Artillery Regt

43rd Division Col Kazim Bey and LtCol Osman Nuri Bey
43rd Artillery Regt

44th Division LtCol Sükrü Bey and LtCol Mehmet Hayri Bey and Col Hasan Askeri Bey and LtCol Mustafa Bey
44th Artillery Regt

The Regts are my own but what the missing Regts are I am unsure.

Cheers

S.B

[Bill Woerlee]

Mates

I have

41st Division

131st Regt - 4 Btns; 4/131 in the Hejaz, 132nd Regt - 4 Btns, 133rd Regt - 4 Btns

43 - formed at Adana August 1915 - OC Rafet Bey
67th Regt - 3 Btns, 136th Regt - 3 Btns, 138th Regt - 4 Btns
1 Sqn Cavalry
43rd Artillery Regt 1 field 4 mountain batteries = 19 guns.

44 - formed at Homs recruiting mainly Arabs - OC Ihsan Bey
137th Regt - 3 Btns [formerly with 43rd Div, broken up and reformed attached to 44], 139th Regt - 4 Btns, 140th Regt - 4 Btns

Cheers

Bill

[Tosun Saral]

Before I continue I would like to add:

General of the Army Ali Fuat Erden (the old Chieff of Staff of the 4th Army) says in his book "Birinci Dünya Savaşında Suriye Hatıraları (Memories of Syria during WW1) published by Türkiye İş Bankası Kültür Yayınları,2003, p.70 that "41, 43, 44th Divisions was established from the units of Mobile Gendarmerie in Haleppo and Syria
and also depot battalions of VI th and VIII th AC's.

4th Army After 2nd Canal Expetition, 1st and 2nd Gazze Battles (End of 1916-First Half of 1917) (p. 143)
3rd Army Corps: Col. Ismet ( Gen.of the Army Inonu, 2nd President of Turkish Republic)
41st Div.: Lt. Col. Cemil (Maj. Gen. Conk)(Army Serial Nr: P/Inf.-1308(1891)-3)(Maj. Gen. :1923)(Retired: Feb.13rd 1931)
Chief of Staff: Capt.Hasan
-- 131stR.: Lt. Col. Nusret
--132 nd R.:Lt. Col. Galip
--133rd R.: Maj.Şerif
-- 41st Artillary R:. Lt. Col. Asım

8th AC: Cemal Pasha (Mersinli)
43rd Div.: Col. Kazım (Gen. Dirik) (look at axis)
No R.'s mentioned
12nd AC: Remzi Pasha
44th Div.: Lt. Col. Şükrü, later during June 9th- Aug 22 1917 Lt. Col. Mehmet Hayri

General Command of Syria and West Arabia (Oct.1917-September 1918) and Turkish Attack to Seria July 14th 1918 and Musallabe Battle.

12nd AC: Abdülkerim Pasha (Gen. Öpelimi)
41 st Div.: Col. Cemil (Maj.Gen. Conk)
44 th Div.: Lt. Col. Sükrü, later Col. Hasan Askeri

43rd Div. was demolished on Oct. 6th 1918 and 44 th was demolished on Nov. 25th 1918

End of the story.

[Tosun Saral]

According to book. "Birinci.....) p. 396

The Situation and organization of the 4th Army at the end of 1916 and beginning of 1917

44th Inf. Div. was in Osmaniye ( A place near in Adana)
-- 139th R with 2 battalions wit a MG Company
--140th R with 2 Bttl.
--159th R.:with 3 Bttl.
-- 44th Artillary R with 1st Schnellfeuer Battalion with 2 battaries, 2nd Commen fire fieldBattalion with 2 batteries, 4th Mountain Battary of the 36th Artillary R. with 6 a commen fire guns, 12nd Engeneers Battn. 44th Medical Company, 4oth mobile field Hospital, 41st cooking platoon
43rd Div. in Aliye
units: 67, 137, 138th Inf. Regiments with each 3 Battns., 4th Comany of 29th Cavalry R., 1st field Battn. of the23rd Artillary R. with 3 commen fire battaries, 2 obus battaries with 4 guns and the aother with one commen fire gun, 3rd Company of the 12nd Eng. battt., 12nd Medical Company, 42nd mobile field Hospital, and cooking platoon

41st in Belen (moved to Haleppo at the beginning of 1917 and attached to 3rd AC)
-131 with 3 Battn, 132 with 1st and 4th battn, 133 with 2nd and 3rd battns, Cavalry Company of volunteers from Humus, 41st Art. R. a.s.o

[territoriale]

My thanks to Bill, Steve and Tosun for their information on the 41st, 43rd and 44th Divisions.

Looking at the other posts on the forum, I note that the 138th regiment appears with the 3rd Division in 1917. Did this mean that the 43rd Division then only had 2 regiments?

It is also interesting to see that the 136th Regiment was part of the 53rd Division in 1918. If that was also part of the 43rd Division, it seems that there was not much of it left by 1918!

Has anyone any thoughts or information on what had gone on?

Martin James

[drewsart]

Hi Martin i hope this helps a little

the units that are in italic are under strength, units that are underlined have been redeployed since January 1918

the OOB is for the entire ottoman army June 1918

THRACE
I Corps:42 Inf Div
I Cav Bde
25 Inf Div

GALLIPOLI
Fifth Army
XIV Corps: 57 Inf Div
XIX Corps: None
XXI Corps: 49 Inf Div

ANATOLIA
Second Army
XV Corps: None
58 Inf Div

SYRIA-WEST ARABIA
Forth Army
VIII: 43rd, 48th Inf Div
XII Corps: 23rd, 41st, 44th Inf Div
Hicaz Group: 58th Inf Div & 3 Provincial Divs

PALESTINE
Yildirim Army Group
Seventh Army
III Corps; 1st & 24th Inf Div, 3rd Cav Bde
XX Corps; 26th, 53rd, 19th Inf Div
Eight Army
XXII Corps 3rd, 7th, 16th, 20, 54th Inf Div
2 Cauc Cav Div

Asia Corps - German

CAUCASIA
East Army Group
VI Corps: 3rd, 5th, 36th Cauc, 37th Cauc Inf Div
Ninth Army
1st Cauc Corps: 9th Cauc, 10th Cauc Inf Div, 15th Inf Div
IV Corps: 5th, 11th, 12th Inf Div

MESOPOTAMIA
Sixth Army
XIII Corps 2nd and 6th Inf Div
XVIII Corps 14th, 51st, 52nd, 46th Inf Div

ARABIA-YEMEN
VII Corps: 21st, 22nd, 39th, 40th Inf Div

Inactive Units: 4, 9, 10, 17. 18, 27th, 31st, 32nd, 34th, 38th, 54th, 59th Inf Div
Re designated units: 13th, 28th, 30th, 33rd Inf Div

Having looked at the January OOB the units appear to have not changed in structure so I would suggest from this that the 43rd remained the same

Source Order to Die page 188

Regards Andrew
[/i]

[drewsart]

Hi Martin,

With regard to the 136th Regiment being part of the 53rd Division I have this information form my notes

At the time of the 2nd battle of Gaza (April 1917) the 53rd Division had 161st, 163rd, 165th Regiments attached.

By the 3rd battle of Gaza (Oct - Nov 1917) the 53rd Division had 79th, 161st, 163rd Regiments attached still no sign of the 136th regiment

however by April of 1918 the 53rd Division had 32nd, 163rd Regiments attached and the 136th appears within the units OOB

Andrew

[Bill Woerlee]

Mates

Just to add a few more items to the mix.

In January 1917, the 136th Regiment was based at Zahle

By 30 June 1917

31st Regt - 3rd Div
32nd Regt - 3rd Div
136th Regt - 43rd Div
138th Regt - 3rd Div

By 23 August 1917

31st Regt - 3rd Div
32nd Regt - 3rd Div
136th Regt - 43rd Div
138th Regt - 3rd Div based at Sheria

By now, the 43rd Div contained the 80th Regt, 136th Regt, and the Mevleve

By 5 June 1918

31st Regt was absorbed into the 16th Div
32nd Regt was absorbed into the 53rd Div
136th Regt was absorbed into the 53rd Div
138th Regt was broken up and absorbed into the 16th Div

At that time, the 3rd Div consisting of the 31st Regt, 138th Regt, and the 161st Regt was broken up and absorbed into other units.
The 16 Div consisted of the 47th Regt, 48th Regt, and 125th Regt.
The 43rd Div consisted of the Mevlevi & Lebanon Militia, a pale reflection of its previous glory.

Cheers

Bill

[drewsart]

Good morning Bill

Thanks for the info on the 136th Regiment we now have conflicting dates for the join June and April 1918.

Does anybody have a clearer date.

Andrew

[stevebecker]

Mates,

What about the Artillery for these arab div's were they ever completed and what types of guns did they get equipt with,

Would this be correct?;

1/43th batty – (4 x 77mm QF) 2/43th batty – (4 x 77mm QF) 3/43th batty (4 x 77mm QF) 4/43th batty (4 x 77mm QF)

1M/43rd Mountain Artillery batty (6 x 75mm mountain Howitzers) 2M/43rd Mountain Artillery batty (6 x 75mm mountain Howitzers)

Cheers

S.B

[drewsart]

Hi Bill

With regard to the 43rd Div

I have re-checked my notes and two of my source books, these state that the 43rd was a division of reasonable force and not under strength.

In "Order to Die" - Syria and West Arabia, 1917, page 175 Erickson states "the VII Corps had substantial force at its disposal......... The VII Corps deployed the 43rd Infantry Division around Beirut ...... it was a substantial force, which could not be spared simply to watch for an invasion that never came. The Turks had little choice in the matter and maintained strong forces in these locations until the end of the war."

Therefore is it possible that the statisticians and authors are counted numbers rather than the quality of the fighting troops to arrive at the assumption that the Divisions strength was reasonable.

However from your sources It would seem that if a division is staffed by militia then it would have an inferior presence on the field but not due to numbers, this fits in with your evidence and Martins original enquiry re the Division being staffed by 2 regiments.

If we are looking at an over all picture to clarify the strength of a unit then we need to also look at the fighting quality of the troops.

The Mevlevi - Soldiers of the Prophet p 179 states that the Melevi regiment composed 2 battalions - the first being first class Dervish volunteers with the second being ordinary recruits, from this I would surmise that the fighting quality was average although I don’t have formation numbers for this unit.

With regard to the Lebanon Militia, I can only assume that these units were the locally raised volunteers placed into units of varying size and ability - I don’t have information on these formations either.

By 1917-early 1918 most unit formations regardless of nationality (except the USA on the western front) were fielding under strength Battalions, regiments, bridges and inferior Divisional numbers. I would assume the authors and researchers are taking this into account when stating that units were of sufficient fighting quality in numbers.

I agree that the 43rd would have been a shadow of its former self but at the time it may still have presented as a formidable fighting force on the field.

Regards
Andrew

[Bill Woerlee]

Andrew

G'day mate

Regarding the 136th Regt, no conflct at all. I have no information as to what happened to the 136th in between the two dates given. These are just status reports on these particular dates.

Regarding the 43rd Div, the numbers might make it sound awesome but the "on the ground" reality is somewhat different. Militia troops are rarely well trained and in the Ottoman case, this should be a given. Not only that, they would not be readily available for movement to an active war zone. Hence the 43rd Div was stripped of all its front line troops and left with essentially garrison troops whose numbers were swelled by auxilliaries of indeterminate quality. This reformed 43rd Div never had the opportunity of demonstrating its prowess so I suppose its quality as a formation is moot.

Cheers

Bill

[Bill Woerlee]

Steve

G'day mate

All I have listed for the 43rd artillery is 1 Field battery of 3 guns and 4 Mountain Batteries of 4 guns each making a total of 19 guns.

Cheers

Bill