Catalca Line 1912

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
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Peter H
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Catalca Line 1912

#1

Post by Peter H » 22 Feb 2007, 13:41

From Ed Erickson's Defeat in Detail:
...this position took its name from a small village about forty kilometers west of Constantinople.The tremendous natural strength of the Catalca position has never been adequately addressed in the history of the Balkan Wars...the ridgeline was largely open grassland and offers magnificient observation to the west...because of coastal lakes the actual defensible terrain requirement at the Catalca position is a front of only twenty-five kilometers in length.Assuming that the enemy does not have an amphibious capability,the Catalca position is one of the finest defensive positions in Europe.
Has anyone got photos from 1912/13 of this position?

Or modern day photos?


A map also from Erickson
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Peter H
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Re: Catalca Line 1912

#2

Post by Peter H » 20 Jan 2009, 05:01

Photos from the US Library of Congress,Bain Collection 1912.

Captions on photos
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Peter H
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Re: Catalca Line 1912

#3

Post by Peter H » 20 Jan 2009, 05:02

Next..
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Stellan Bojerud
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Re: Catalca Line 1912

#4

Post by Stellan Bojerud » 20 Jan 2009, 11:44

The photo of "Rapid fire guns before Tchataldja" shows a Bulgarian MG Coy. A MG Coy had four 8 mm MGs type Maxim M 1909 (shown on photo). According to Austro-Hungarian source Bulgaría in 1913 had 232 MGs of that type.

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Mr Holmes
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Re: Catalca Line 1912

#5

Post by Mr Holmes » 21 Jan 2009, 15:19

Photo No. 2606-T (the 2nd photo that Peter has posted), what sort of boots are the Turkish soldiers wearing? Are they for winter?

Nick

Tosun Saral
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Re: Catalca Line 1912

#6

Post by Tosun Saral » 23 Jan 2009, 11:41

Those Turkish soldiers are not regulars but irregulars. They are called "Redif" which means aged soldiers. It was a system like US's National Guards. They are wearing traditional Turkish shoe called "Çarık" which is weared in Anatolia since the time of old Hittites (5000 years ago) Çarık was also weared by Bulgars (an ancient Turcic folk who turned into slavs and christians). Çarık was made of cow skin. The above part is called "Dolak" (Puttee)

a Turkish Çarık exibited in a mesuem at Gallipoli:
source:
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur ... n%26sa%3DN
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Re: Catalca Line 1912

#7

Post by Tosun Saral » 23 Jan 2009, 18:45

A tired Turkish soldier
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Mr Holmes
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Re: Catalca Line 1912

#8

Post by Mr Holmes » 26 Jan 2009, 14:23

Thank you Effendim,

I also thank you for the picture of the shoe, close-up.

One more question, if I may:

Would you know many of these irregulars were posted at the Catalca line? (only if it is easy for you to find, I don't want to go off searching for me).

Thanks once again :)

Nick

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Re: Catalca Line 1912

#9

Post by Tosun Saral » 27 Jan 2009, 12:14

Kalimerhaba, (A new word mixture of Greek Kalimera and Turkish Merhaba. It is commenly used nowadays in Turkey which means in English Hello)

East Army (Şark Ordusu)
During Kırklareli-Süloğlu-Pınarhisar- Lüleburgaz battles on Oct 18th- Nov. 16th 1912
- Uşak Redif Tümeni ( The Redif Divi. of the Province Uşak(A province between Eskişehir and Afyon) cpmmanded by Canip Pasha.
CoS: Capt. İbrahim
- Afyon Redif Tümeni, The Redif Div. from the Province Afyon Karrahissar) commanded by Col. Şükrü at the order of 3rd AC.
- Kastamonu Redif Tümeni The Redif Div. from Kastamonu commanded by Şevket Paşa at the order of 2nd AC
CoS: Capt. Bekir
- İzmit Redif Tümeni from Nicosia commanded by Fahri Pasha at the order of 4th AC
CoS: Capt.Şemsi
- Canakkale Redif Tümeni comaned by Col. Nasuhi at the order of 2rh AC
CoS: Mehmet Hüsnü
-Konya Redif Tümeni commanded by Col. Cemal ( Famous Ahmet Cemal Pasha) at the order of 17th AC
- Ereğli Redif Tümeni: Co. Rıza
-Samsun Redif Tümeni:Galip Pasha
-İzmir Redif Tümeni:Lt. Col Mustafa Hamdi
Denizli Redif Tümeni: Col. Tefvik at the order of 16th AC

At Edirne Fortress Battles: Oct 18th 1912- March 26th 1913
- Bursa Redif Alayı the Redif Regiment from Bursa
- Edirne Redif Tümeni: M. Aziz Pasha
CoS: Maj. Hayri
Edirne Redif Alayı: Redif Reg. from Edirne: Lt. Col. Nasuhi
Koşukavak Redif Ref.: Lt. Col. Ahmet
Dedeağaç Redif Reg.:Lt. Col. Cemil
- Gümülcine Redif Div: Col Nuri
CoS: Capt Hulusi (Col. Conk)
Gümülcine Redif Reg: Maj. Cemil (Maj. Gen. Conk of Gallipoli)
Sultanyeri Redif Reg: Lt. Col. İsmail Hakkı
İskeçe Redif Reg:Lt. Col. Ali Rıza
- Babaeski Redif Div: Ali Nazım Pasha later Lt. Col. Ali Şefik (Col Aker of Gallipoli)
CoS : Capt. İsmail hakkı
Babaeski Redif Reg:Maj. Halil
Çorlu Redif Reg:Maj. Hasan tahsin
Kırklareli Redif Reg:Maj. Hüseyin Hüsnü
Keşan Redif Reg:Col. Mehmet Emin

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Re: Catalca Line 1912

#10

Post by Tosun Saral » 27 Jan 2009, 13:14

Kalimerhaba

Redif of Çatalça Army
1st Çatalça battle Nov.17-20 1912
-İzmit(Nicosia) Redif Regiment of 4th Div.
-Bandırma Redif Reg. of 12th Div: Lt. Col. Şükrü
-Kırmastı Redif Reg. Lt.Col Mehmet

Polathane R. Reg. of 7th Div.:LtCol. M. Tevfik
Ankara:Col. Mustafa
Tosya:Lt. Col. Mehmet Hamdi
Konya of 8th Div.:Ltcol. Remzi
Kayseri of 9th Div: Lt. Col Musa Kazım (we know him from Palastina)
Nevşehir:Mahmud

Eregli Redif Div: Col. Rıza
Kayseri R. Div.:Sabri Pasha
Amasya R. Div: Suleyman Şefik Pasha
Yozgat R. Div.:Ziya Pasha
Samsun R. Div.:Omer Galip Pasha
Selimiye R. Div: İdris Pasga
Fatih R. Div: Mustafa remzi Pasha

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Mr Holmes
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Re: Catalca Line 1912

#11

Post by Mr Holmes » 27 Jan 2009, 14:55

Tosun Saral wrote:Kalimerhaba, (A new word mixture of Greek Kalimera and Turkish Merhaba. It is commenly used nowadays in Turkey which means in English Hello)
Yep, I gathered; and indeed likewise to you too, Effendim!

Sir, you are one indefatigable source of information for this whole period. I thank you most warmly for your listings.

Thank you!

Nick

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Peter H
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Re: Catalca Line 1912

#12

Post by Peter H » 28 Jan 2009, 01:23

When Bulgaria collapsed in September 1918 and the Allies from Salonika then started to advance on Constantinople from that direction would the Catalca Line still have been able to have blocked them?

Did actual skirmishing,fighting occur in this region as the Allies moved up?

What Turkish forces were available in European Turkey September-October 1918?

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jwsleser
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Re: Catalca Line 1912

#13

Post by jwsleser » 31 Jan 2009, 18:48

Peter

Information is from Türk Silahli Kuvvetleri Tarihi IIIncü Cilt, 6nci Kisam 1nci Kitap (1908-1920) (History of the Turkish Armed Forces vol III, part 6, book 1) and Türk Istiklal Harbi I Mondros Mütarekesi ve Tatbikati (Turkish War of Independence vol I The Mondros Treaty and its Application).

On October 31 1918, the Ottoman XXV Army Corps, under the 3rd Army (HQ in Istanbul), was responsible for northern and central Thrace. The 5th Army (HQ in Gelibola) was responsible for southern Thrace and the straits.

XXV AC was to have the 10th Kalfas and 15th Divisions. Only the 31st Infantry Regiment (10th Kf) had arrived, the bulk of the 10th Kf was in Batum and the 15th was still in central Caucasia. So most of the western border was held by the 31st Infantry Regiment and the 545th Hudut (Border) Battalion. The 3rd Army also controlled the Çatalac Müstahkem Mevki (Çatalca Fortified Place) occuppying the Çatalca Lines, but this was mostly an artillery command and didn’t have a large infantry component.

The 5th Army controlled the XIV AC, consisting of the 49th, 55th, 60th, and 61st Divisions. All but the 61st were in Gallipoli, the 61st being on the Asiatic shore. The army also controlled the Çanakkale Müstahkem Mevki.

There was really no confrontation between Ottoman and Entente forces after the collapse of Bulgaria. The Ottoman government had withdrawn the XX AC from Macedonia into Turkish Thrace in April 1917. The 177th Infantry Regiment followed in May 1918. The Ottomans began diplomatic contacts on 13 October before any really combat could develop.

As one can see, the collapse of the Macedonia Front left the Ottoman Army strategically off balanced. If 5th Army was pulled north, the straits would be left uncovered, allowing the Entente to do what the tried in 1915. In 1913, the Çatalca Lines were held by 18 divisions. Clearly four battalions wasn’t going to do much. 8th Army had the 56th Division in Izmir and the 57th at Antalya; not much help against an Entente push against Istanbul. The excessive forces in the Caucasus couldn’t be redeployed in time to affect the situation. So the Ottoman government had little choice at that point.

Hope this helps.

Jeff.
Last edited by jwsleser on 01 Feb 2009, 03:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Peter H
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Re: Catalca Line 1912

#14

Post by Peter H » 01 Feb 2009, 03:28

Thanks Jeff. :)

Peter

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Peter H
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Re: Catalca Line 1912

#15

Post by Peter H » 24 Sep 2009, 11:35

A Çatalca photo here as well from the Bulgarian side:
http://hobymarketatillasaribas.azbuz.co ... TOGRAFLAR-

What is the highpoint in the distance(second photo)?

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