Turkish losses

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
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Peter H
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Turkish losses

Post by Peter H » 24 Feb 2007 06:18

Ottoman/Turkish losses:

Italo-Turkish War 1911-1912(According to Wikipedia)

Killed,dead 14,000
Wounded 5,370

Balkan Wars 1912-1913(According to Erickson)

Killed 50,000
Died of disease 75,000
Wounded 100,000
Pows 115,000

WW1 1914-1918(According to Erickson)

Killed,dead,missing 305,085
Died of disease 466,759
Wounded 303,150
Pows 145,104
Deserters 500,000

Greco-Turkish War 1919-1922(According to Wikipedia)

Killed,dead 20,450
Wounded 10,000



Total 1911-1922 (excluding Pows,deserters)

Killed,dead,missing 389,535
Died of disease 541,759
Wounded 418,520

Total 1,349,814

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 24 Feb 2007 14:23

Supporting analysis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Mu ... orld_War_I
Turkish peasantry of Anatolia had dropped to 40% of the pre-war levels

Tosun Saral
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Post by Tosun Saral » 24 Feb 2007 18:31

In 1933 there were only 15 million Turks mainly old men and women, sick and lamed. Today we are 75 million. We have an army that scare all enemies and give hope to underpressed.

Nikolay
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Post by Nikolay » 24 Feb 2007 20:14

Tosun Saral wrote: We have an army that scare all enemies and give hope to underpressed.
I am asking just out of curiosity: Who exactly are your enemies and who are the "underpressed" ?

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Post by stevebecker » 24 Feb 2007 23:08

Mate,

I am unsure but I think most armies in the world have some slogan with the defence forces.

USA has there little bits "Land off the brave home of the free".

I don't know about our (aussie Army) but we may have some thing also.

There notting wrong with taking pride in your homelands armed forces, weather its Bulgaria or Turkey or any other nation.

I served along side the Turks in Bosnia and my father did in Korea and we have many good words about their army.

S.B

Tosun Saral
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Post by Tosun Saral » 25 Feb 2007 00:51

Underpressed was Bulgaria under Rusian iron jorke.
Underpressed was Turkish Cpriots.
Underpressed was Bosnians
Underpressed are Palastiners.
Underpressed are Turcomans in Irak
Shall I continue?

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 25 Feb 2007 01:08

To all,let's get back on the topic being discussed....Turkish war losses.

Are there monuments to the fallen in Turkey?

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 26 Feb 2007 07:55

An off topic comment has been deleted--Peter H.

Let it rest gentlemen.

Nikolay
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Post by Nikolay » 26 Feb 2007 08:39

I do agree to see my last comment deleted. Yes, it was off-topic. But it was a direct answer to the last post of Mr. Saral. What his last post has to do with the topic?

Let's be fair, gentlemen.

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Mr Holmes
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Post by Mr Holmes » 30 May 2007 13:36

Earlier today, I decided to key in "1922" in the Turkish Daily News website in the hope of finding any information on the events of 1922 in Smyrna/Izmir when I came across this:
In his 1996 book, “Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims: 1821-1922,” historian Justin McCarthy wrote much about that oft-neglected side. He revealed that in the course of the century between the Greek war of independence and World War I, the Ottoman Empire suffered 5.5 million dead and 5 million refugees, a fact he deems Europe's largest loss of life and emigration since the Thirty Years' War.
Without knowing anything about the reported author (I remember a thread in our Holocaust and War Crimes section that this author was at the heart of a debate between a few members of AHF), the numbers are depressingly high. If anyone has read this book, does McCarthy cite the numbers of deaths in the period which we are dealing with here? Do they stack up with those numbers that our Moderator has tallied in the original post?

Source: http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/arti ... wsid=66262
(After all, who remembers the Ottoman Muslims?, by Mustafa Akyol,Thursday, February 15, 2007)

Thanks,

Nick

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 30 May 2007 14:26

Nick,

Just checked my files.Here's McCarthy's figures,note we are talking about Muslim civilians here,not military losses as in my original post:

Greek War of Independence 1821

25,000 dead 10,000 refugees

Caucasian War 1827-1829

26,000 refugees

Crimean Expulsion(1859-1861)

75,000 dead 300,000 refugees

Caucasian Expulsion(1859-1864)

400,000 dead 1,200,000 refugees

Bulgarian War 1877-1878

260,000 dead 515,000 refugees

Caucasus 1877-1878

70,000 refugees

Balkan Wars 1912-1913

1,450,000 dead 410,000 refugees

Eastern Anatolia 1914-1921

1,190,000 dead 900,000 refugees

Caucasus 1914-1921

410,000 dead 270,000 refugees

Western Anatolia 1914-1922

1,250,000 dead 480,000 refugees

Internal refugees 1914-1922

1,200,000 refugees

Unknown/dead

440,000 estimated unknown deaths and refugees deaths


This gives around 5,500,000 dead and 5,000,000 refugees between 1821-1922(refugee figures are sometimes those that set out,not those that arrived safely).McCarthy extimates that around one fifth of Ottoman Muslims were from refugee stock in 1922,a "melting pot" of Turks,former Tartars,former Caucasian Muslims,Circassians,Bosnians,Albanians,Bulgar Turks,Cretan Muslims,Greek Muslims etc.

The majority of the deaths can be accounted for by disease but massacres did also occur.

regards
Peter

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Mr Holmes
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Post by Mr Holmes » 30 May 2007 14:54

Sir, you mean those original figures for the Balkan Wars were just combatants 8O... sorry for the emoticon, but it expresses precisely what I felt when I read your note (not just for the 1912 period, but for this 100 years period. That is the equivalent of one Greece slain and expelled). In the other thread "Siege of Ionia" wherein you listed the casualty figures, I was under the impression that the numbers were inclusive of the civilian population, I had no idea you were referring only to combatants.

Thank you for providing the list. Would I be safe in presuming that such tallies amongst different researchers would differ only in small amounts (for the whole era that McCarthy has pointed out, 1821-1922)? I think I am going to ready myself for some in-depth reading in this whole subject.

Sir, thank you for igniting a greater interest.

Nick

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Post by Nikolay » 30 May 2007 18:09

Peter H wrote:Nick,

Just checked my files.Here's McCarthy's figures,note we are talking about Muslim civilians here,not military losses as in my original post:

Greek War of Independence 1821

25,000 dead 10,000 refugees

Caucasian War 1827-1829

26,000 refugees

Crimean Expulsion(1859-1861)

75,000 dead 300,000 refugees

Caucasian Expulsion(1859-1864)

400,000 dead 1,200,000 refugees

Bulgarian War 1877-1878

260,000 dead 515,000 refugees

Caucasus 1877-1878

70,000 refugees

Balkan Wars 1912-1913

1,450,000 dead 410,000 refugees

Eastern Anatolia 1914-1921

1,190,000 dead 900,000 refugees

Caucasus 1914-1921

410,000 dead 270,000 refugees

Western Anatolia 1914-1922

1,250,000 dead 480,000 refugees

Internal refugees 1914-1922

1,200,000 refugees

Unknown/dead

440,000 estimated unknown deaths and refugees deaths


This gives around 5,500,000 dead and 5,000,000 refugees between 1821-1922(refugee figures are sometimes those that set out,not those that arrived safely).McCarthy extimates that around one fifth of Ottoman Muslims were from refugee stock in 1922,a "melting pot" of Turks,former Tartars,former Caucasian Muslims,Circassians,Bosnians,Albanians,Bulgar Turks,Cretan Muslims,Greek Muslims etc.

The majority of the deaths can be accounted for by disease but massacres did also occur.

regards
Peter
And what are the sources for these figures? I mean neutral sources...

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Bill Woerlee
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Post by Bill Woerlee » 30 May 2007 23:13

Nikolay

G'day mate

Like Nick, I am pleased that Peter has not only pulled all the disparate sources together but generously published them - a difficult task under any circumstances - but Nikolay, Peter has indicated his sources. They are as god as they get. Yes they are estimates. I doubt very much that McCarthy individually counted every casualty. So on that basis, estimate though it is, it is indicative of the scale of calamety.

Here's the thing Nikolay, if you don't like someone's conclusions, it is time to sit down and do your own work and produce alternative figures. If you feel they exist, do what Peter has just done and collate them first and then publish them here. I would be interested in seeing your research work placed here for us to scrutinise. However, I don't think it is fair for you to ask Peter to do your research work for you. Don't you?

Looking forward to see your alternative figures.

Cheers

Bill

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 31 May 2007 01:52

I've presented McCarthy's figures but that does not mean I agree with them.

For example how did 1,450,000 Muslim civilians die in the Balkan Wars?This seems a bit excessive.

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