Turkish losses

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
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Mr Holmes
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Post by Mr Holmes » 31 May 2007 02:31

Even if McCarthy's (I don't know anything of his background or agendas, if any... I have seen a thread as earlier stated in which his credibility as a neutral author was debated) figures are very highly exaggerated, that would still leave thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands) of Muslim civilian casualties, I would think. Would it mean that they bore the brunt of the casualties list from amongst the warring nations? (In the "Siege of Ionia" thread, Bulgarian and Serbian soldier casualties were also very high, would this also indicate a high number of casulaties on their nationals as well? Sorry for the possibly off-topic question, the question can be deleted if need be.)

Nikolay
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Post by Nikolay » 31 May 2007 07:42

Bill Woerlee wrote:Nikolay

G'day mate

Like Nick, I am pleased that Peter has not only pulled all the disparate sources together but generously published them - a difficult task under any circumstances - but Nikolay, Peter has indicated his sources. They are as god as they get. Yes they are estimates. I doubt very much that McCarthy individually counted every casualty. So on that basis, estimate though it is, it is indicative of the scale of calamety.

Here's the thing Nikolay, if you don't like someone's conclusions, it is time to sit down and do your own work and produce alternative figures. If you feel they exist, do what Peter has just done and collate them first and then publish them here. I would be interested in seeing your research work placed here for us to scrutinise. However, I don't think it is fair for you to ask Peter to do your research work for you. Don't you?

Looking forward to see your alternative figures.

Cheers

Bill
Bill, I would never critisize Peter for anything. I am for one deeply grateful for him for all his work here. What I did ask was if in the book of Mr. McCarthy there are any neutral sources given. I thought it was clear from my reply as I was citing a citation by Peter from the book. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 31 May 2007 10:00

Gents,I think we are all on track now. :)

Apparently McCarthy didn't have much access to Ottoman archives when he published Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims in 1995.

His main sources were Western consular reports, eye witness accounts by foreign observers on the spot and secondary sources.

However three subsequent Turkish works on the subject using Ottoman archives are said to confirm his findngs.(Halaco¤lu, Ahmet (1994), "Balkan Harbi S_ras_nda Rumeli’den Türk Göçleri (1912-1913)", Ankara, Türk Tarih Kurumu; _pek, Nedim (1994),"Rumeli’den Anadolu’ya Türk Göçleri (1877-1890)", Ankara,Türk Tarih Kurumu; and Toumarkine, Alexandre (1995),"Les migrations des populations musulmanesbalkaniques en Anatolie (1876-1913)", Istanbul, Isis.6 Hüseyin Raci bin Hac_ Hüseyin, Tarihce-i vaka-i Zagra, Istanbul 1326/1910).


I'm still trying to reconcile the claim of 1,450,000 Muslim civilians deaths in the Balkan Wars 1912/13.My understanding is that the Ottoman territory in Europe being contested over had a population of 4.2 million in 1912.This was a peak figure,as approx 50,000 Bosnian Muslims had also recently arrived in Macedonia as a result of the Austrian takeover of Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1908.

Of the 4.2 million how many were Muslims?Regions and villaets varied.Albania for example was two-thirds Muslim,while the Salonika villaet was said to be 40% Muslim.Most likely we are talking about 2.2 million Muslims in the region in 1912.

Around 400,000 did end up as refugees in Turkey by 1913,another 400,000 remained until being moved to Turkey in 1923.This leaves 1.4 million.

Of this figure approx 400,000 Muslim Albanians are accounted for as remaining in 1913.A minority Muslim population also still survived in Macedonia,Greece,Bulgaria and Serbia after 1923.Say another 200,000 people.This leaves 800,000 Muslims unaccounted for,presumed dead.

Supposedly cholera caused the most deaths.I have found no proof that it was introduced into the region by Turkish soldiers deployed from Syria as one source claims.


.

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 31 May 2007 10:36

"Cholera epidemics in the Ottoman Empire during 1910-1913"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract
From 1910 to 1913 was one of the disastrous periods of the history of the Ottoman Empire. Cholera epidemic was one of the causes of this calamity. The early cases of cholera were diagnosed on July 15 in Erzurum in 1910. The disease was imported from Russia and started to spread in the country. Cholera appeared in Istanbul on September 1st and spread rapidly. This danger necessitated the mobilization of all civilian and military resources. In spite of these efforts, Istanbul became an important focus of cholera for Turkey, because of intensive human traffic in the capital. Some cholera cases came from Iran to Iraq and from Italy to Libya and disease spread out to the vicinities during this year. This epidemic disappeared in January 1911. According to the official records, between July 15, 1910 and January 12, 1911 cholera killed 4023 people. In May 1911 cholera reappeared in Samsun and spread within the Ottoman Empire and 18876 persons were infected with cholera and 12143 of them died. In 1912 and 1913, the foundations of the Ottoman Empire were shaken by Balkan War, military defeats, lost territory, unlucky refugees and immigrants, and dreadful calamity of cholera epidemic. There is no reliable official record on the exact numbers of cholera patients and deaths. This great epidemic subsided during the Autumn of 1913. In the Ottoman Empire, preparation of Kolle's vaccine against cholera was started in 1912 and its was applied during 1913.

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Bill Woerlee
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Post by Bill Woerlee » 31 May 2007 10:41

Nikolay

G'day mate

My apologies for that misunderstanding. Glad you have sorted it out and now I understand clearly what you are saying. I have to agree with you on your request and beating me to the Punch, Peter has done just that. You must have a heck of an archive at your finger tips Peter. Well done mate.

Cheers

Bill

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 10 Jun 2007 02:04

Civilian deaths in War of Independence 1919-1922

1,246,000 Turks
313,000 Greeks

By Greeks it means those that lived in Turkey.


Source:Who are the Turks,Justin McCarthy.


Obviously these figures are already included in the 1914-1922 totals as already given.

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