Request for assistenace to identify artillery batteries

drewsart · Post by **drewsart** » 23 Mar 2007 01:18

Good morning all

I am looking for assistance with regard to identifying the Turkish artillery formations at Beersheba.

Firstly thanks to Steve, Tosun, Jeff and Bill for providing much information to date. So to recap what I have it is as follows:

From the OH, Military History Egypt and Palestine, Tabular Record of Operations, Appendix 1, page 651

‘Turkish artillery consisted of 28 guns’
(Numbers confirmed by Erikson, Ordered to Die, page 172-173)

From Col. Hüseyin Hüsnü Emir (Maj. Gen. Erkilet) (Chief of Staff of Army Group Yıldırım), The book : Yıldırım" p.115

‘Turkish artillery consisted of 6 batteries’

From the Official history of the Australians in the War 1914-1918, Volume VII Sinai and Palestine, – ‘soon more than 100 field-pieces and howitzers were jolting the shallow advanced trenches with high explosive, and shrapnel was falling effectively on all moving targets and cutting off the positions from their rear. Twenty heavy guns were engaging the Austrian batteries.’

Von Sanders in Five years in Turkey states that at Beersheba a battery of 2 x Austrian 150mm guns existed at the time of the action.

From information provided by the forum members I Have the following:

27th Artillery Regt - Maj Mazhar
1/27th batty – (4 x 77mm QF)
2/27th batty – (4 x 77mm QF)
3/27th batty (4 x 77mm QF)

Attached 3x Batteries 23rd Artillery Regt

So can anybody identify the Austrian batteries being talked about?

Can anybody confirm the identity of the attached 23rd regiment batteries and their numbers and composition?

Is there the possibility that the 6 batteries from the Turkish source are wrong or did they not count the Austrian Artillery, i guess that if the latter fell outside III corps command they may not have been counted.

Regards
Andrew

jwsleser · Post by **jwsleser** » 23 Mar 2007 03:20

Andrew

Based on all the discussion of Third Gazze, I have been working on a Turkish OB for this battle. Not completed but getting there.

Artillery Present at Birüssebi. 7 batteries were present (4 from the 27th XX, 1 from the 3rd Cav XX, 2 as corps troops)[Birinci Harbi IV Cilt 2 Kism page 130] making 28 guns available. This is confirmed by the after action report of Albay Ismet (Inönü), the 3rd Corps commander reprinted as Ekler (annex) 3 on pages 785-816 in the OH. From the same sources, I have identified the 1/13th Art II, 2/43rd Art II, and the 2/39th Art II (pages 136-7, each with two batteries) as the units present. I am still working out which battalions supported the 27th XX. I have not found an identification for the battery with the 3rd Cav XX.

The best source for the Austro-Hungarian involvement in Palestine is Dr. Jung's 'Der K.u.K. Wüstenkrieg'. Third Gazze and events after are discussed on pages 103-117. The two batteries involved were part of the Gazze defense and not at Birüssebi. The two batteries were 1/4th der K.u.K. Gebirgshaubitzabteilung in der Türkei (formerly Gebirgshaubitzdivision von Marno) and K.u.K. Kanonenbatterie Nr. 20.

Jeff

stevebecker · Post by **stevebecker** » 23 Mar 2007 23:30

Jeff,

Interesting, The batteries given are a little strange but not impossible.

The 13th Artillery Regt had been disbanded in the Caucasus in 1916, why would one of thier Bn's be still around in Oct 1917 on the Gaza front?

The 43rd Artillery Regt I can understand as the 2/23rd FA Battery formed part of this Div Artillery and there could be some cross movment between formations. I have a number of these 23rd Regt batteries in both the 42nd and 43rd Div's with many of the 43rd's Artillery also in the 42nd Div.

The 39th Artillery Regiment was in Yeman and what would one of there Bn's be doing there?

I concer with your note on the Austrian Guns,

Its some form of British racisum in their historys, that they use in their accounts either Austrian or German formations when the Turks are doing well, as if the Turks couldn't do it them selves. So when you read these accounts be aware of it when they mention formations other then there own.

S.B

Tosun Saral · Post by **Tosun Saral** » 24 Mar 2007 00:14

Source: Maj. Gen. Hüseyin Hüsnü Emir (Erkilet) gives the following information about artillary in his book "Yıldırım" p.112
" the situation in the night of Oct. 30th 1917
1- 2 battarys of 2nd battalion of the 43th Artillary Regt with 8 guns was positioned on the west front between Sebi-Tellü'ş-Şeria railway and Sebi Valley.

2- 2 battaries of the 1st battalion of the 13rd Art.Regt.was positioned with 2 battaries on its left side building a commen defence position with 8 guns at southwest front between Sebi River and Damascus and Pelune Hills.

3-A battary of 2nd battalion of 39th Art. Regt. was positioned on the north of Izmir Hill. on south front along from Şam(Damascus) Hill to the road to Sebi-Hafir to the beginnimg of Valley Vadiü'ş-Şuayb with 4 guns

4-A field battary of 2nd Battalion of 39th Art. Regt. positioned as general reserve with 8 guns.

Totaly 28 guns

Tosun Saral · Post by **Tosun Saral** » 24 Mar 2007 00:20

Erkilet: Yıldırım

p.362

Number of Artillary guns lost between Nov.31 1917- Dec. 13th 1917.

44 serial field gun
10 light field Obüs
9 heavy obüs
4 10 cm gun
3 12 cm gun
3 Flaks
17 mortars

lost in Jerusalem fights:
3 field gun
3 12 cm gun

Also: 109 MGs

jwsleser · Post by **jwsleser** » 24 Mar 2007 04:22

Tosun

Thanks for the information. Ismet (Inönü) states seven batteries, of which one is a horse battery (bir süvari batarya). Now that I have reread the passage, the cavalry battery is a made-up (composite) battery (mürekkep) so would not have an official designation.

S.B.

I am beginning to work a theory that by 1916 artillery numbering was independent of the division. I have detailed information on the organization of the Ottoman divisions at Çankkale at various times during the campaign and detailed information at key times in other theaters. The artillery was basically pulled from the divisions and operated under group control. This is a very sensible method given the terrain and overall small area of the peninsula. This grouping and regrouping of artillery is seen in other theaters, especially Irak. This process, combined with losses, found the Ottomans assigning artillery as needed and not based on designation. I believe that by 1916, artillery was assigned by battalions, with a division normally receiving two battalions (this could vary based on mission). While the artillery component could be referred to by the divisional number, I find it more common in 1917-18 that the individual battalions are listed instead (when any artillery designations are provided). An example is the 27th XX in December 1916. The 27th Art III consisted of the 1/5th III, 2/23rd III, and 1/25th III. Not a 27th Art III unit in the bunch. Of all the divisions in the 4th XXXX at that time, only the 44th has batteries exclusively from the 44th Art III. I feel this also explains the 13th Art III. I am not sure it deployed to the Caucasus with the 13th XX. The artillery of the units serving in Çankkale were so intermixed that deploying XXs would receive the units best prepared at the time.

RE: 39th Art III. I have far too much information on the Hicaz, Asir and Yemen Fronts. These units were tasked organized daily (only kidding but is seems like it). The one thing I have never read is anything on the 39th and 40th Art IIIs in this theater. In 1914, the artillery was in the 19th Art III under corps control. If you remember, the 19th XX didn't exist before the war. The batteries were attached out to the individual groups (and the battalions of the regiments were also intermixed in the groups). These divisions operated in that manner throughout the war. I have more Orbats for these four divisions than I can easily format. I believe the 39th and 40th Art III were formed during the war and used everywhere except in the Hicaz, Asir, and Yemen.

Jeff

Tosun Saral · Post by **Tosun Saral** » 24 Mar 2007 11:31

Dear Jeff really Sorry I can not give you a reasonable answer. I am not a professional soldier.

jwsleser · Post by **jwsleser** » 24 Mar 2007 16:17

Dear Tosun

Your contributions are greater than many of the professional soldiers (myself included) on this fourm. You have made Turkish sources available to the group, which certainly of great value to me. Your insights and stories of the Turkish people help us better understand the Turkish soldier and the challenges he faced during the First World War. I was fortunate to work with the Turkish Brigade in MND North under IFOR in the early nineties and appreciate the professionalism of the Turkish military. In all, I always enjoy reading your posts and the information you offer.

Içten teşekkürler

Jeff

stevebecker · Post by **stevebecker** » 25 Mar 2007 01:23

Mates,

Yes I ve got to agree Turkish Artillery formations are a major problem as much as Infantry and MG Formations.

The units of the 27th Artillery Regt below are as per the date around Jan 1917 which would no dought change by Oct.

Jan 1917 -

1/27th batty (4 x 77mm QF)
2/27th batty (4 x 77mm QF)
3x Mountain Batteries (4 x 75mm mountain Howitzers)

And later (no date)

1/27th batty (4 x 77mm QF)
2/27th batty (4 x 77mm QF)
3/27th batty (4 x 77mm QF)
attached 3x Batteries 23rd Regt

I do have a note that the batteries of the 27th Artillery Regt and 23rd Artillery Regt may have gone to the 45th Div in Mesopotamia but when I don't have, but a note mentions April 1917.

Cheers

S.B

Tosun Saral · Post by **Tosun Saral** » 25 Mar 2007 11:12

Source: Maj. Gen. Hüseyin Hüsnü Emir (Erkilet) gives the following information about artillary in his book "Yıldırım" p.112
Gen. Erkilets gives the following information at page 112. I wrote in blavk letters:

" the situation in the night of Oct. 30th 1917
1- 2 battarys of 2nd battalion of the 43th Artillary Regt with 8 guns was positioned on the west front between Sebi-Tellü'ş-Şeria railway and Sebi Valley.

2 battalions of 81st Regt. at front, 2nd inf.Co at reserve on the back of right wing, A Inf. Co. was ordered to protect Ebu Rakik Station and Bridge and cover the region between Ebu Rakik and Birü's-Sebi.
2- 2 battaries of the 1st battalion of the 13rd Art.Regt.was positioned with 2 battaries on its left side building a commen defence position with 8 guns at southwest front between Sebi River and Damascus and Pelune Hills.

67th Inf. Regt. with its 2 battalions, 4th battalion of the 79th Regt., 1st battalion of the 81st Regt. 3 battalions were positioned at the front and a battalion was at the back as reserve

3-A battary of 2nd battalion of 39th Art. Regt. was positioned on the north of Izmir Hill. on south front along from Şam(Damascus) Hill to the road to Sebi-Hafir to the beginnimg of Valley Vadiü'ş-Şuayb with 4 guns

2 battalions of 48th Reg was positioned at both sides of the road., A battalion was at reserve on the left back.

4-A field battary of 2nd Battalion of 39th Art. Regt. positioned as general reserve with 8 guns.

3rd Cav. Div. A mounted battary was at the antiairflak redoub at the west of Birü's-sebi., 2nd Inf. Regt with its 3 battalions without MGs

Totaly 28 guns

jwsleser · Post by **jwsleser** » 25 Mar 2007 22:57

S.B.

I am not sure of the source for your information (likely intelligence reports). The 27th Art III is listed as part of the 3rd XX on 31 December 1916. It lists the 5th Mountain Battery/27th Art III (so likely from the 2nd Battalion). It is again listed in January 1917 (page 448). There are two other mountains batteries listed with other parts of the 3rd XX, but are not identified.

In late January 1917, the 3rd XX is reorganized. The 5th Art III is reorganized with the 1/5th Art III, 2/6th Art III, while the 3rd battalion is a mürettep unit built using the 7th Mountain Battery/27th Art III and a mountain battery from the 36th Art III.

The 4 Mountain Batttery/27th Art III pops up at Gazze on 27 January with the 79th Infantry III. So it appears that the 2/27th Art III was a mountain battalion. The 1 Mountain Battery/27th Art III appears a few pages later.

Confusing to say the least. I am checking on the regiment going to Irak.

Jeff

stevebecker · Post by **stevebecker** » 25 Mar 2007 23:30

Jeff,

Every time we put something I have to correct it again, thanks its always good to cover all angles as my sourses are British which are not always correct.

Jan 1917 has the 3rd Div with these batteries;

one Mountain Bty/1st Artillery Regt
one Mountain Bty/9th Artillery Regt
one Mountain Bty/11th Artillery Regt
one Mountain Bty/3rd Mountain Artillery
one Bty/11th Artillery Regt

So the 5th Artillery Regt being there instead of its Div in the Caucasus to be destroyed was another shock.

S.B

drewsart · Post by **drewsart** » 26 Mar 2007 01:47

Good morning gentlemen

Firstly I would like to again express my thanks and admiration to the forum members for helping with this one and spending their time unwinding the complexity of the ottoman artillery situation.

So to recap on the evening of the 30th October 1917 the deployment of Ottoman artillery at Beersheba/Birü's-sebi was as follows

2 x Batteries, 2nd Bn/43th Artillery III, (8 guns Mountain 75mm), positioned to the western front between Sebi-Tellü'ş-Şeria railway and Sebi Valley.

2 x Batteries, 1st Bn/13th Artillery III (8 guns Mountain 75mm) positioned to the south west between Sebi River and Damascus and Pelune Hills

1 x Battery, 2nd Bn/39th Artillery III (4 guns Mountain 75mm) positioned to the north of Izmir Hill.

1 x Battery, 2nd Bn/39th Artillery III (8 Guns Field 75mm QF) Regt positioned as general reserve - possibly being the formation confused in Allied and German official histories as being an Austrian battery due to its accuracy and QF ability.

Total guns 28.

1 x Battery, Composite Horse Battery 3rd Cav XX (8 Guns Field 75mm QF). Located at the anti-aircraft redoubt to the west of Birü's-sebi. Not counted in the total guns as these guns played no part in the action but counted towards the total batteries quoted by official Turkish history sources.

Total Batteries 7, total guns 28 (32).

Regards
Andrew

stevebecker · Post by **stevebecker** » 26 Mar 2007 07:15

Mate,

I think you'll find the two batteries 2Bn 39th Artillery Regt add up to 8 guns not 12.

1 x Battery, 2nd Bn/39th Artillery III (4 guns Mountain 75mm) positioned to the north of Izmir Hill.

1 x Battery, 2nd Bn/39th Artillery III (4 Guns Field 75mm QF) Regt

total 8

making 28 guns with the Horse Battery 3rd Cav Div? (4 x 75mm Guns)

But I've been wrong before.

S.B

jwsleser · Post by **jwsleser** » 26 Mar 2007 13:28

Steve

I agree with your laydown and it matches what is provided in the OH. None of the batteries had 8 eight guns. But I will check again tonight.

Jeff