Turkish armored cars

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
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Mait
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Turkish armored cars

#1

Post by Mait » 29 Mar 2007, 09:53

Hello.

I have some questions about armored cars in Ottoman Empire:

Were German armored cars used in Palestine front? How many and which models?

I read from somewhere (I have lost the source) that Turks captured some British armored cars in Palestine & Mesopotamian fronts (and possibly in Baku). Has anyone got more details about that? How many of them and which models were captured? Were any pressed into German or Turkish service?

Were any armored cars used by Turks in WW1 at all? I know they had 4 primitive French semi-armored cars in Istanbul.

Best Regards,

mait.

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Peter H
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#2

Post by Peter H » 29 Mar 2007, 14:44

Something on the four Automitrailleuse Hotchkiss in 1909:

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quart ... rmcar1.htm
In 1909, Hotchkiss company manufactured, at the Turkish Sultan's orders, four protected cars, quite similar to the 1902 Charron-Girardot et Voigt Automitrailleuse, equipped with a machine gun located on the rear.
These cars saw action during the riots which led to the Sultan's ousting. Their actual use was, however, very "unusual" because, while in transit to reach the Sultan's army, they were captured by the Young Turks, a revolutionary group, ... and used against the Sultan himself.

I have seen no reference to the German Asienkorps having an AFV unit attached.


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Mait
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#3

Post by Mait » 30 Mar 2007, 12:20

I have seen some notes about German Erhardt armored cars in Palestine. Using Google I found this site: http://www.tin-soldier.com/sg/erhardt.htm which states that "Some of these cars were sent to support Turkish operations in Palestine."

I know that this most dubious source of information so I sent the question about any German armored car in Ottoman war theaters here.

So - has anyone heard of any German armored car used in Asia?

And what about the British armored cars - were any captured by Turks? What became of these machines?

Best Regards,

mait.

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#4

Post by Tosun Saral » 31 Mar 2007, 10:48

I can not give you a resonable but I hope this may help you:

Source:Major General Huseyin Husnu Emir Erkilet ( Lt. Col. Huseyin Husnu Emir was Chief of Staff of Yildirim Army Group)
The nook: Yildirim (Lightning, p.348)

Automobile units of Yildirim Army Group on Oct. 1. 1917

- Auto Unit no 751 of the Army was still in Istanbul
- Auto unit No.708 of the Army transported by train from Haydarpasa Main Train Station at Istanbul.
- Medical Auto Unit no:731 " " " " " " " " " "
-Auto Unit No.701 and 705 of the Army was in Meslimiye near Aleppo.
- " " No.704 """ in Aleppo
-" " No.715 """ in Aleppo at the order of Chief District Commander
-" " No.
- " " No.702, 703, 704, 706, 707, 709, 711 and 713 moved to Jerusalem from Aleppo,
- " " No.710 was left temporary at Ankara
- " " No.713 " " " " Konya

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Peter H
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#5

Post by Peter H » 31 Mar 2007, 13:07

These are transport units.

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Mait
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#6

Post by Mait » 02 Apr 2007, 22:56

So no German armored cars were sent to Palestine?

By the way I found from the internet a picture about the Hotchkiss armored car mentioned before.

Best Regards,

mait.
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Bill Woerlee
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#7

Post by Bill Woerlee » 03 Apr 2007, 03:37

Mait

G'day mate

Great pic. I think the design of the car was based on the priniciple that no one would be returning fire. I am not too sure about the protection offered the driver of the vehicle let alone the body armour offered to the gunner. This is one vehicle to avoid when it comes to combat.

Cheers

Bill

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Helen Bachaus
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#8

Post by Helen Bachaus » 04 Apr 2007, 08:14

Hi

I was reading "The AIF in Sinai and Palestine" by HS Gullett and on page 778 its starts off" Here a Force of Turks and Germans was seen, but on the appearance of Macandrew's force they fled in motor-lorries covered by one armoured car".

Area is Khan Sebil where the action occurred on the 22 Oct 1918.

Question: Do we know what type of Armoured car was being used by the Turks/Germans in this action.

The armoured car by the way was captured in what was term "a sporting chase" 8-)

Would be interested in hearing from anyone about this. :D

God Bless

Helen

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Mait
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#9

Post by Mait » 05 Apr 2007, 06:55

This topic deals with British armor on Palestinian front:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=106091

There is a mention about british armored cars captured in 1915 and 1917. Has anyone got more information about this?

Best Regards,

mait.

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Peter H
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#10

Post by Peter H » 05 Apr 2007, 08:12

From that link:
From the offical German war news cables:
26.12.15 Muslim warriors captured 10 automobiles, of which 3 were armoured, from the English near Sollum and Matruh
This is in Libya .The British account states:
Meanwhile Sollum post had been evacuated by sea on the afternoon of the 23rd November, such motor cars of the Royal Naval Armoured Car Squadron as could be moved having been dispatched by land previously. In the evacuation it was unfortunately found necessary to disable and abandon three light Ford cars and the two Egyptian Army 9 c/m Krupp guns, and to abandon an outlying post of one Egyptian officer and fourteen other ranks which failed to reach the beach in time to embark, and were made prisoners. The garrison of Sollum—strength, British, five officers and twelve other ranks, Egyptian, two officers and ninety other ranks—reached Matruh safely on November 24th.

The evacuation of the posts at Bagbag and Sidi Barrani was effected by land on November 23rd, everything of value being removed, except four light cars at 'the latter post, which were disabled before abandonment.
The Despatches of Lieutenant-General Sir John Maxwell, Commanding the force in Egypt. Printed in the Third Supplement to the London Gazette of 21 June 1916.

All cars were disabled.


.

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Peter H
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#11

Post by Peter H » 05 Apr 2007, 08:25

The one British armoured car captured at Gaza might be the one that Helen found was encountered at Khan Sebil.

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Peter H
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#12

Post by Peter H » 05 Apr 2007, 08:42

Australian armoured cars against the Senussi:

http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/histor ... ers/28.pdf
...light car patrols of Ford cars and light armoured motor batteries of Rolls Royce cars..

More here:

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-arm ... st-ww1.htm

http://hegewisch.net/blindkat/lrdg/lrdgbeginnings.html

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Bill Woerlee
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#13

Post by Bill Woerlee » 05 Apr 2007, 09:44

Mates

There are two things to be noted about the Macandrew story.

1. It is believed that the armoured car was German - that is as close to the type I can find.

2. Regarding the fate of Macandrew, I found this article in the 28 July 1919 edition of the Daily Mail:
General Macandrew.

Killed by Petrol on Tunic.

Cairo, Friday.

Major-Gen. H.J. Macandrew, commander of the Fifth Division, stationed at Aleppo, died a tragic death last week. His tunic had been cleaned with petrol and was hanging in a room to dry when the general, wearing pyjamas, entered smoking a cigarette. The petrol vapours exploded, burning General Macandrew so severely that he died in hospital a week later.—Reuter.

It is possible that too much petrol was used or that the heat of the sun vaporised the petrol and thus rendered it so easily inflammable. An exactly similar accident is not recorded in our own climate.
Fate has a strange way of working. Being a cavalry man born and bred on the horse, in the end, indirectly, it was the motor vehicle that killed him. This irony of course is writ on the larger stage between the motor vehicle and the horse.

Cheers

Bill

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Peter H
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#14

Post by Peter H » 05 Apr 2007, 10:04

Thanks Bill.

Officially the largest German vehicles deployed to Palestine were Daimler trucks like this one.From the AWM website.
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Mait
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#15

Post by Mait » 05 Apr 2007, 10:10

Maybe the Germans built some improvised armored cars from their trucks? Or just mounted machineguns on them and their opponents thought that they are engaging german "armored" cars?

Best Regards,

mait.

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