72 States founded on Ottoman Territory

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
Tosun Saral
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72 States founded on Ottoman Territory

Post by Tosun Saral » 09 May 2007 16:38

Avrupa
State/ rule
1.Turkey
2.Bulgaria (545 years)
3. Greece (400 years)
4.Serbia (539 y.)
5.Montenegro (539 y.)
6.Bosnia-Hersek (539 y.)
7.Croatia (539 y)
8.Macedonia (539 y)
9.Slovenia (250 y)
10.Romania (490 y)
11.Slovakia (20 y) Uyvar
12.Hungary (160 y)
13. Moldova (490 y)
14.Ukrania (308 y)
15.Azerbaycan (25 yýl)
16.Georgia (400 y)
17.Armenia (20 yýl)
18. South Cyprus (293 y)
19.North Cyprus (293 y)
20. South of Russia (291 y)
21.Polond (25 ): Lehistan protectorate
22. Southeast shores of Italy (20 y)
23.Albania (435 y)
24. Belarusia (25 ) protectorate
25.Litvania (25) "
26.Letonia (25 ) "
27.Kosova (539 y)
28.Voyvodina (166 y) : Banat

Asia
29.Irak (402 y)
30.Syria (402 y)
31.Israil (402 y)
32.Filistin (402 y)
33. Jordan (402 y)
34.Suudi Arabia (399 y)
35. Yemen (401 y)
36.Umman (400 y)
37.United Arab Rmirates (400 y)
38.Katar (400 y)
39.Bahreyn (400 y)
40.Kuveyt (381 y)
41. West of Iran (30 y)
42.Lebanon (402 y)

Afrika
43. Egypt (397 y)
44. Libya (394 y) Trablusgarp
45.Tunus (308 y)
46.Algeir (313 y)
47. Sudan (397 y) : Nübye
48.Eritre (350 y) : Habeþ
49.Cibuti (350 y)
50.Somali (350 y) : Zeyla
51. Kenya (350 y)
52.Tanzanya (250 y)
53.North of Çad (313 y) : Reþade
54.A part of Nijeria (300 y): Kavar
55.North of Mozambic(150 y)
56.Fas (50 ) -protectorate-
57. West Sahara (50 y) -protectorate-
58.Moritania (50 y) - "-
59. Mali (300 y) : Gat
60. Senegal (300 y)
61.Gambia (300 y)
62.Gine Bissau (300 y)
63.Gine (300 y)
64.A part of Etiyopia (350 y) : Habeþ
65.indian Moslems - Pakistan -
66.East India Moslems -Bangladesch-
67.Singapur
68.Malezia
69.Endonezia
70.Han of Turkistan
71.Nijerya
72.Kamerun

Nikolay
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Re: 72 States grunded on Ottoman Territory

Post by Nikolay » 09 May 2007 20:15

Tosun Saral wrote:Avrupa
State/ rule
1.Turkey
2.Bulgaria (545 years)
3. Greece (400 years)
4.Serbia (539 y.)
5.Montenegro (539 y.)
6.Bosnia-Hersek (539 y.)
7.Croatia (539 y)
8.Macedonia (539 y)
9.Slovenia (250 y)
10.Romania (490 y)
11.Slovakia (20 y) Uyvar
12.Hungary (160 y)
13. Moldova (490 y)
14.Ukrania (308 y)
15.Azerbaycan (25 yýl)
16.Georgia (400 y)
17.Armenia (20 yýl)
18. South Cyprus (293 y)
19.North Cyprus (293 y)
20. South of Russia (291 y)
21.Polond (25 ): Lehistan protectorate
22. Southeast shores of Italy (20 y)
23.Albania (435 y)
24. Belarusia (25 ) protectorate
25.Litvania (25) "
26.Letonia (25 ) "
27.Kosova (539 y)
28.Voyvodina (166 y) : Banat

Asia
29.Irak (402 y)
30.Syria (402 y)
31.Israil (402 y)
32.Filistin (402 y)
33. Jordan (402 y)
34.Suudi Arabia (399 y)
35. Yemen (401 y)
36.Umman (400 y)
37.United Arab Rmirates (400 y)
38.Katar (400 y)
39.Bahreyn (400 y)
40.Kuveyt (381 y)
41. West of Iran (30 y)
42.Lebanon (402 y)

Afrika
43. Egypt (397 y)
44. Libya (394 y) Trablusgarp
45.Tunus (308 y)
46.Algeir (313 y)
47. Sudan (397 y) : Nübye
48.Eritre (350 y) : Habeþ
49.Cibuti (350 y)
50.Somali (350 y) : Zeyla
51. Kenya (350 y)
52.Tanzanya (250 y)
53.North of Çad (313 y) : Reþade
54.A part of Nijeria (300 y): Kavar
55.North of Mozambic(150 y)
56.Fas (50 ) -protectorate-
57. West Sahara (50 y) -protectorate-
58.Moritania (50 y) - "-
59. Mali (300 y) : Gat
60. Senegal (300 y)
61.Gambia (300 y)
62.Gine Bissau (300 y)
63.Gine (300 y)
64.A part of Etiyopia (350 y) : Habeþ
65.indian Moslems - Pakistan -
66.East India Moslems -Bangladesch-
67.Singapur
68.Malezia
69.Endonezia
70.Han of Turkistan
71.Nijerya
72.Kamerun
I consider this as a joke by my dear and respected friend Tosun. Or probably some science fiction or alternative history :D
2/3 of the countries in question were never part of the Ottoman territory - Kamerun, Indonesia, Malesia, Slovenia, Singapur, quinea Bissau, Poland (to name a few ) and so on. And I am quite positive that around 1/4 of these states were never even visited by Ottomans.
And Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece were founded well before ottomans even existed. For example, Bulgaria as a state was founded in 681 AD when its independance was recognised by Bysantine emperor Constantin IV with a treaty.

Tosun, I do respect your profound knowledge on Ottoman army in 1912-1918 and the history of the Turkish republic, but the earlier history does seem a terra incognita to you...
Last edited by Nikolay on 09 May 2007 22:37, edited 2 times in total.

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Allen Milcic
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Re: 72 States grunded on Ottoman Territory

Post by Allen Milcic » 09 May 2007 20:35

Hi Tosun:

A few comments:

7.Croatia (539 y) - only portions of Croatia were occupied by the Ottoman Empire, the remainder (so-called "ostaci ostataka" - reliquiae reliquiarum olim inclyti regni Croatiae - remains of the remains) were the fortified border between the Ottomans and the Habsburgs. Some coastal regions and islands were under the rule of the Republic of Venice, plus the sovereign Republic of Dubrovnik (Ragusa) was never under Ottoman rule. My parent's hometown of Karlovac (Karlstadt), which was in the fortified border, was beseiged 6 times but never fell to the Ottomans. Needless to say, the Republic of Croatia is NOT "grounded on Ottoman territory", but rather on Croatian territory, some of which was for a period of time under Ottoman rule.

9.Slovenia (250 y) - no part of the Republic of Slovenia was ever under Ottoman rule

27.Kosova (539 y) - Kosovo is not a state, it is a province of Serbia

28.Voyvodina (166 y) : Banat - Vojvodina is not a state, it is an autonomous province of Serbia.

I am not familiar with the histories of other states/territories you list, but I suspect that your list is more than slightly exaggerated.

Regards,
Allen/

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Allen Milcic
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Post by Allen Milcic » 09 May 2007 21:08

Map showing greatest extent of Ottoman Empire:
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Allen Milcic
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Re: 72 States grunded on Ottoman Territory

Post by Allen Milcic » 09 May 2007 21:18

Dear Tosun:

As can be seen from the above map, the following states you list were never, even partially, ruled by the Ottoman Empire:

9.Slovenia (250 y)
11.Slovakia (20 y) Uyvar
25.Litvania (25) "
26.Letonia (25 ) "

51. Kenya (350 y)
52.Tanzanya (250 y)
54.A part of Nijeria (300 y): Kavar
56.Fas (50 ) -protectorate-
57. West Sahara (50 y) -protectorate-
58.Moritania (50 y) - "-
59. Mali (300 y) : Gat
60. Senegal (300 y)
61.Gambia (300 y)
62.Gine Bissau (300 y)
63.Gine (300 y)
65.indian Moslems - Pakistan -
66.East India Moslems -Bangladesch-
67.Singapur
68.Malezia
69.Endonezia
70.Han of Turkistan
71.Nijerya
72.Kamerun

This is over and above the noted discrepancies addressed in my first posting re: Croatia, Kosovo, Vojvodina.

Under the circumstances, I would be interested to know how you came up with the information you listed?

Regards,
Allen/

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Mr Holmes
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Post by Mr Holmes » 10 May 2007 00:38

Also, note the earlier Seldjuk advances and aquisitions via this link:

http://www.ghazali.org/site/maps.htm

The Greek figure of 400 years is accurate, really, only as it concerns Constantinople's Fall. Salonika and other parts of modern day Greece had fallen a number of years before. Asia Minor, Cilicia and Cappadocia had fallen many years before that. Antioch which was a stronger Greek city (in terms of numbers of the populace I mean) had passed through many hands as well. I don't remember when the region of Pontus was conquered.

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Allen Milcic
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Post by Allen Milcic » 11 May 2007 19:31

* Two off-topic and insulting posts were removed by the Moderator. Gentlemen, please keep it civil and on topic. Thank you. *

Tosun Saral
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Post by Tosun Saral » 11 May 2007 19:56

Dear Milcic & Friends in this forum,
I just forwarded a post to inform people and to begin a discussion between gentlemen. I dont wait that you like my post. but according my source (Turkish Historian Yılmaz Öztuna's Türk Tarihi "Turkish History) it is a historical fact. I confide you that I am not an irredentist. I am a man of peace and I believe in brotherhood of all mankind. On the other hand I never realized that there are so many anti-Turks in this forum. Those who are hot about Turks can sit in Freezer to cool themselves. Those who want to continue can send posts for I can read and learn something that I dont know. I am open to all kinds of goodwill. I dont like those who insult my nation or religion. Because I dont insult other's nations or religions. If I insulted unwillingly please forgive me.
With all my best wishes for better understanding.
So mote it be!

Nikolay
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Post by Nikolay » 11 May 2007 20:15

Tosun,

As you very well know I respect very much the history and people of Turkey. I just pointed out that what was presented in your first post had absolutely nothing or very little to do with history facts. It was just cheap nationalistic propaganda. That kind of writings you can find in many Bulgarian books and forums as well and my feelings to that kind of things is the same doesn't matter it's source - be it Bulgarian, Turkish or anything else.
Also I don't think there are any Anti-Turks on this forum.

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Allen Milcic
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Post by Allen Milcic » 11 May 2007 20:23

Hi Tosun:

Anti-turkish sentiment and diatribes will be quickly and summarily dealt with by the moderating staff - they are not welcome on this Forum, just as insulting and degrading posting about other nations, ethnicities and religions are unwelcome. The goal of the administration of this Forum is to have friendly discourse over a range of historical topics, and we welcome input from all corners of the world. Most certainly, we are all happy to welcome and to have contributors from Turkey! Please do not be put off by occassional outbursts from certain individuals - it is unfortunate that there will be some bad apples who have small minds or who cannot get over ancient ethnic or religious rivalries, but we will deal with those as they surface. Remember, also, that the topic of the Ottoman domination of the Balkans is still a very hot-button issue amongst many of the nations therein, and at times persons may respond from the heart rather than with their heads. For better or for worse, the legacy of the Turks in the Balkans is enormous, in many aspects, so expect some passion while discussing the history and the issues.

With regards to your intial posting in this thread, I would be happy to discuss the information further. As indicated in my postings and on the map I provided, your source is incorrect in many ways. What exactly does Yılmaz Öztuna Türk Tarihi base his information on?

Looking forward to a productive discussion.

Allen/
Last edited by Allen Milcic on 11 May 2007 20:55, edited 2 times in total.

Tosun Saral
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Post by Tosun Saral » 11 May 2007 20:25

Dear Milcic,
11.Slovakia (20 y) Uyvar

Hungarian: Érsekújvár,
German: Neuhäusl/Neuhaeusl or Neuhäusel/ Neuhaeusel,
Turkish: Uyvar is a town in southwestern Slovakia.= Nové Zámky
The war route againts Austrians is called in Turkish History Expedition to Uyvar (March 26th 1663) On September 13th 1663 Uyvar was concured by the Turks.
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:bF ... cd=3&gl=tr

Tosun Saral
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Post by Tosun Saral » 11 May 2007 20:32

65.indian Moslems - Pakistan -
66.East India Moslems -Bangladesch-
67.Singapur
68.Malezia
69.Endonezia
On the a/m moslem lands there were no Ottoman Turkish Armies but during 5 times a day prayer for the Moslems, it was announced that Ottoman Turkish Sultan and Calif is their master. In every Friday speech the Hodjas mentioned the name of Sultan as their ruler.

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Allen Milcic
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Post by Allen Milcic » 11 May 2007 20:41

Tosun Saral wrote:Dear Milcic,
11.Slovakia (20 y) Uyvar

Hungarian: Érsekújvár,
German: Neuhäusl/Neuhaeusl or Neuhäusel/ Neuhaeusel,
Turkish: Uyvar is a town in southwestern Slovakia.= Nové Zámky
The war route againts Austrians is called in Turkish History Expedition to Uyvar (March 26th 1663) On September 13th 1663 Uyvar was concured by the Turks.
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:bF ... cd=3&gl=tr
Thank you for that information Tosun, I was not aware of the occupation of Nove Zamky. So for 17 years a small southern portion of today's Slovak Republic was part of the Ottoman Empire - very interesting. By the way, I believe Nove Zamky means "new castle" in Slovak.

For your interest, here is a short article on my parent's hometown of Karlovac, mentioned in one of my earlier postings (emphasis added by me):
Karlovac was built from scratch in 1579 under the in order to strengthen Austria's southern defences against Ottoman encroaches. It was founded as a six-pointed star fortress built on the Zrinski estate near the old town of Dubovac at the confluence of the Kupa, Korana, Mrežnica and Dobra rivers. The unique star shape can still be seen around the town. It was originally known as Karlstadt, Carlstadt, or Carlstatt ("Charles's Town" in German), after Archduke Charles II of Austria, upon whose orders construction began on July 13, 1579. The architect of the city was Matija Gambon.

The first church (of the Holy Trinity) was built in the central square in 1580, but all of the city buildings burned down in the fire of 1594. The forces of the Ottoman Empire laid siege to Karlovac seven times, the last time in 1672, but failed to occupy it. The plague epidemic of 1773 was also a notable threat to the city, decimating almost half the population at the time.

As a military outpost of the Habsburg Empire, Karlovac was the site of the trial and execution of the best-known leader of the rebel Uskoks from the coastal fort of Sinj, Ivan Vlatković. He was executed in Karlovac on 3 July 1612 as an example to his troops who were creating difficulties for the Habsurgs by their piracy against Venetian shipping on the Adriatic Sea, and by marauding raids into the Ottoman hinterland. When the Treaty of Madrid was concluded in 1617, bringing an end to the war between Spain and the Habsburg Empire, under the terms of the treaty the Uskok families were forcibly removed from Sinj and disbanded into the hinterland, most notably in the Žumberak hills near Karlovac.

Meanwhile, the fort was becoming too crowded for the city's expanding population and the Military Frontier government could not allow for its further growth. On December 6, 1693 the city received some limited self-government. Queen Maria Theresa, after long insistence from the Croatian Parliament, restored the towns of Karlovac and Rijeka to the Croatian crownland on August 9, 1776. King Joseph II reaffirmed it as a free town with an official charter in 1781, allowing the citizens to expand the city and exploit the potential of being at the crossroads of paths from the Pannonian plains to the Adriatic coast. The town blossomed in the 18th and 19th centuries with the development of roads to the seaside and waterways along the Kupa River.

The town's fortunes declined in the 20th century, though it is currently recovering.

Karlovac suffered much damage during the Croatian War of Independence (1991-1995). The southern sections of the city were close to the front lines between the Republic of Croatia and the rebel Serbs, and the neighborhoods of Turanj, Kamensko as well as parts of Mekušje, Mala Švarča and Logorište were devastated by shelling. The city center, the city hall and numerous other buildings were also damaged.

Karlovac's main industry is now its beer "Karlovačko", produced by Karlovačka pivovara.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlovac

Best regards,

Allen/

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Allen Milcic
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Post by Allen Milcic » 11 May 2007 20:50

Tosun Saral wrote:65.indian Moslems - Pakistan -
66.East India Moslems -Bangladesch-
67.Singapur
68.Malezia
69.Endonezia
On the a/m moslem lands there were no Ottoman Turkish Armies but during 5 times a day prayer for the Moslems, it was announced that Ottoman Turkish Sultan and Calif is their master. In every Friday speech the Hodjas mentioned the name of Sultan as their ruler.
Hi Tosun:

So these lands were then never de facto parts of the Ottoman Empire, but rather some (likely not all?) religious leaders therein preached an unofficial form of suzerainty? Interesting, though I do not think this qualifies the lands as being states founded on Ottoman territory.

Regards,
Allen/

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 12 May 2007 00:42

Tosun Saral wrote:Dear Milcic & Friends in this forum,
I just forwarded a post to inform people and to begin a discussion between gentlemen. I dont wait that you like my post. but according my source (Turkish Historian Yılmaz Öztuna's Türk Tarihi "Turkish History) it is a historical fact. I confide you that I am not an irredentist. I am a man of peace and I believe in brotherhood of all mankind. On the other hand I never realized that there are so many anti-Turks in this forum. Those who are hot about Turks can sit in Freezer to cool themselves. Those who want to continue can send posts for I can read and learn something that I dont know. I am open to all kinds of goodwill. I dont like those who insult my nation or religion. Because I dont insult other's nations or religions. If I insulted unwillingly please forgive me.
With all my best wishes for better understanding.
So mote it be!
A note to members.I think an allowance should be made to Tosun if he posts occasinally information that is debatable or not 100% accurate.His efforts elsewhere in providing quality and hard to find information outweighs such minor offsets.

Anti-Turk agendas will not be tolerated here.No agenda against ANY nation and peoples will be tolerated here.

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