Sink the British Sub. E-15

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
Tosun Saral
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Sink the British Sub. E-15

Post by Tosun Saral » 01 Aug 2007 12:25

On April 17th 1915 British Sub E-15 sailed to cross the dardanelles. She sailed under water within the darkness in order not to be noticed by the shore battaries. At 02:20 she come water surface and sailed forward. On the other hand the Turks at the shore were ready for every possible rossing. They were controlling water surface with searchlights. At that moment Turks noticed E-15 on water surface. Just before Turks fired to the vessel E-15 dived. She reached at 06:00 the cape of Kepez.

At Kepez there were great streams. Despite the presence of Navy Captain Palmer, the old concul of Britain at Canakkale, on board as the naval guide, the stream hit the submarine to the depth of the sea ground. She tried to save her hopelessly. Her bridge was on surface and noticed by Turkish battaries. It was a good target to the Turkish batteries. A shell fired from Dardanos Fortification exploded just on the bride killing sic crew and the captain. A 2nd shell hit at the back and dameged a deep wound. Sea water filled inside of the sub. The crew was ordered to abondon ship because of poison coming from the engines. Capt. Palmer and 2 officers with 21 crew abondened ship. The Turks immediately rescued the crew. E-15 was 1000 meters away to the shore.

It seemed that it would not be diffecult to save the vessel and to repair and serve her under Turkish flag. For the saving operation the tugboat "San'a" and personal of the 2nd Heavy Artillary Brigade was ordered.

Soon the British understood that the E-15 was lost. They begun their best that the sub not getts into Turkish hands. At noon of the same day the British planes bombed Erenköy, İntepe and Yıldız fortifications. They also bombed E-15 3 times in order to sink the vessel. But they missed. According to the same plan a sub BT-6 reached to Tengir and fired a torpedo to E-15 which missed. BT-6 forced to leave the place under heavy artillary fire of Barbaros Fortification. At 23:00 2 destroyers tried their change to sink E-15.
On April 18th two British battleships Triumph and Majestic bombed E-15 without sucsess. A British sub B-11 also was send to sink E-15. But a heavy fog stopped her task.
British made another last attempt. 2 steamboads belonging to battleshisps Majestic and Triumph were equipped with two 350 mm torpedoes was ordered to make a suicide assoult to E-15. The crew were all volunteers. On the night of April 18/19th a boat which belonged to Majestic fired two torpedoes which hit E-15. The other boat was sunk by Turkish shore fire. After dameging E-15 steamboat of Majestic saved the casualties of the other boat and sail away in full speed.

Crew of E-15 in Turkish captivity. In the middle sitting is Capt. Palmer
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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 02 Aug 2007 04:25

The article Liman von Sanders, the Capture of Lieutenant Palmer, and Ottoman Anticipation of the Allied Landings at Gallipoli on 25 April 1915 by Tim Travers states that Palmer "deceived" the Germans into believing a Bulair landing was the main aim of the Allies.

Tosun Saral
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Post by Tosun Saral » 02 Aug 2007 15:15

It is true that Liman Pasha believed a allies landing at Bolayir. The Turkish officers were againts this idea. For that reason there was always a great quarral with Turks and Liman. If Tim Travers state is true that Palmer "deceived" the Germans into believing a Bulair landing was the main aim of the Allies the British sacrified a sub and a steamboad and 6 dead, 23 POWs to convince Liman?????
What a pitty.

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Post by malmö » 02 Aug 2007 16:21

It is true that Liman Pasha believed a allies landing at Bolayir. The Turkish officers were againts this idea.
Dear Mr. Saral, Over 40 years I`m searching in the history of the German- Ottoman co-operation during WW1. I had spend much time in your archives. I was one of the first non-turks who get, for example , an permission to work in the archiv of the Navy Museum, Istanbul. My turkish is still so well that you can answer me in turkish or to read the books publiced by TC Genelkurmay Başkanlığı . Any way, I have read the most of your staatsments here und I must ask you for the proofs. You are tell us a lot of stoires without any scientific proof. A book writen by a general after the war is not scientific. Why ,for example, german navy personal was in the Ottoman Empire, when –as you try to tell me – the turks were able to manage the technic, the war by herself successful, only hindered by arrogant and incapable Germans. Why, by the way, all of the turkish destroyer-commanders keep contact with Firle untill the last of them dead ( See Letter-collection in the Firle papier , Staatsarchiv Bremen) . I was happy to get better informations about this subject by a number of turks, who were in Germany during 16/19 or with the Germans . I remember well long talks I have had with Amiral Afif Büyüktuĝrul and Oramiral Nejat Tümer, as well Erol Denizmen, who was on borad B98 at Jutland.
So, a little more objectivity, please ! 8-)

Bernd Langensiepen
Krickentenweg 26
D 21147 Hamburg

Tosun Saral
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Post by Tosun Saral » 02 Aug 2007 21:05

Dear Mr Langensiepen,

A -"Any way, I have read the most of your staatsments here und I must ask you for the proofs. You are tell us a lot of stoires without any scientific proof."

First of all you accused me of being subjective relying on the fact that I based my "stories" on the memories. You assert that these memories are not scienrific. I have contributed to the forum memories of 2 Turkish Navy Officers.
1-Memories of Torpedo Officer Ali Haydar Bey of Muavenet-i Milliye published in Yıllarboyu Tarih Nr.4, Vo.8, April 1982
2- Memories of Navy Capt. Ali Rıza Bey, captain of Sultanhisar published in the a/m magazine. ( This memory was also broadcasted on the state chanel TRT on March 25th 1982)
As you see, all narrators actively participated in the war and worked together with Germans. As we understand from these memories that they were not pleased to work with Germans. I, just translated those memories with my personal informative headnotes.

So, how can you dare to accuse me of beinig a liar? Please give me an example to any lies fabricated by myself. I can gladly investigate the matter and correct it.

B- "Why ,for example, german navy personal was in the Ottoman Empire, when –as you try to tell me – the turks were able to manage the technic, the war by herself successful, only hindered by arrogant and incapable Germans."

Ali Rıza Bey told:
"... He asked me " Where are we sailing?"
I replied. "To Kirya Sir. We will hold our boat which took Selahattin Adil Bey to Kirya"
My reply didny satisfacted him. I went on to explain what happened during the last hours. He got very angry. He waved a paper in his hand to my face and yelled "A General can not be keep back from his way for a boat. You Turks are all the same. You dont know your duty" His gesture and words made me angry also. I responded him nervous " I waited a gratitude and encouragement for my services of today. We will lost only 5 minutes. Just for a couple days ago you honoured me with your words that I was an distinquished officer who knows his duty very well. Exelence we Turkish Officers know what we do and our duty..."

Ali Rıza Bey continues:
"During our comradeship with Germans we had always difficulties. They usualy interfered in everything. They even interfered in our routes. There was a great unpleasend among all Turkish ranks. There were German naval officers on every ship at any duty. half of the crew were germans. Even in big ships therewere 2 captains- a German and aTurk. For that reason there were always disorder in the ships.
One night as were were discussing about such problems in the mass of the ship Lütfü Bey, the captain of Basra come to vist us.Lütfü Bey was my class mate from the Naval War School. "

The words of Capt. Ali Rıza Bey is reflecting the impression of Turkish navy & army officers on Germans.

On the other side if you kindly read the memories of General a.D. Hans Guhr "Als Türkischer Divisionskommandeur in Kleinasien und Palastina" you will learn the relations betwen Turks and German during WW1.

If you ask me my personal impression on Germans I can say that I dont like them. I studied at University of Vienna during the years 1961-66. I made my banking practice by Deutsche Bank AG in Hamburg, Berlin Frankfurt/Main and Vereinsbank AG in Hamburg (Vereins und West Bank AG) I know you very well. I, also find Germans arrogant and unfriendly.

I know your history very well. I know your past desires over Ottoman Empire and in the Middle East and neocolonializm. I know also your present desires on the territory of Turkish Republic very well. You said that you know Turkish. I think you know this proverb as well:
"Denize düşen yılana sarılır"
( If we translate the proverb into English for our friends in this form (A man who is drowning tries to save himself by holding a snake as if a lifebelt) The poor Turk hold the German snake to save himself during WW1. It was a great mistake. We didnt make the same mistake during WW2.

If you really ever searched over 40 years the history of the German- Ottoman co-operation during WW1 you would find many evidences how the Turkish officers felt about Germans.
It is not late please begin to search again. You will find many evidances at those "first-hand" resources (!)

PS. Admiral Afif Büyüktuğrul (Gv./Deck.1341/(1925)-1604) was a first class seaman and historian. I bow my head infront of his great everlasting memory. He graduated tha Naval School in 1925. He didnt fought at WW1.
Admiral Nejat Tümer was commander of Turkish Navy (Gv./Deck 1944-1980) was borned in 1924 and graduated from Naval School in 1944. He was not a historian.
I never heard about Mr. Denizmen

Memories of such persons are as important as those documents at the states archives because they are reflecting the bottom side of the iceberg. You are referring to the memories of Firle so I translated the memories of Turkish officers. If the memories of Firle is right, then the memories of Turks are also right doubtlessly and we should assess them as "scientific".
With my best wishes during your searches hoping that you are telling but the truth.

Dkfmn. Tosun Saral
Ataç Sokak 37/18
06410 Ankara Turkey
Last edited by Tosun Saral on 02 Aug 2007 23:26, edited 3 times in total.

Tosun Saral
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Post by Tosun Saral » 02 Aug 2007 22:43

Jorge Blanco Villalta former Ambassador of Spain To Ankara "Atatürk" translated into English by William Campbell.
Chapter 9 Caucasus p. 99
"These attempts at revolution expressed the opinion of the army, which was becoming every day more opposed to the way in which the Germans, under the protection of the triunvirate, were exerting pressure on the Turkish Army. The long months of the great war had dissipated the enthusiasm which had been raised in its first days, and had brought the shortages so frequentin war-time. The Germans had been making themselves unpopularand there had been many disputes and quarrels between Turkish and German Officers."

p.112
... the arrival of von Falkenhayn, German influence degenereted into oppression; it was not enough of merely military affairs to have to follow her directions, but the same must be treu of internal political matters. The Prussian character, with its terse way of giving orders and its imperious will to be obeyed, did not agree in the least with that of the Turks, and whenn such a way of thought left its own element, the army, and begun to concern itself with questions of national honour, the Turks rebelled."
TS's Nota: Hans Guhr mentions also same thing.

malmö
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Post by malmö » 02 Aug 2007 23:21

Thank you: 80.000.000 Germans are arrogant and unfriendly. All Turks are brave and friendly. I never said that you are telling lies. I said that you given not scientific proof for the most staatesments. Well, sorry I`m a arrogant German and therefore it`s time to say Good by.
SON

Tosun Saral
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Post by Tosun Saral » 02 Aug 2007 23:34

"You are tell us a lot of stoires without any scientific proof." means lie

Güle Güle

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Post by David Thompson » 03 Aug 2007 06:34

Tosun Saral -- You wrote: "
You are tell us a lot of stoires without any scientific proof." means lie
That's not the way the AHF staff sees it, nor do the vast majority of our readers. The policy reasons for the forum sourcing rule are explained at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 676#990676

Tosun Saral
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Post by Tosun Saral » 03 Aug 2007 14:06

Jorge Blanco Villalta former Ambassador of Spain To Ankara "Atatürk" translated into English by William Campbell.
p.93
" General von Sanders had no information of the plans of the enemy general staff. The Turkish army kept vigil by day and even more by night: the enemy might emerge from the darkness like phantoms, at any moment and at any place. Von Sanders had still not given up his idea that the enemy would try to disembark on the Istmus of Bolayir and he establshed defences in that place, which in fact was never attacked. Onother place which aroused his worries was the empty space between Ariburnu and the southern front. He placed a whole division there, but no one came to attack it."

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Post by Tosun Saral » 03 Aug 2007 14:52

Esat(Bülkat) Pasha :
Esat Bülkat Paşa'nın Hatıraları " Memories of Esat Bülkat Pasha" p.176
" Liman Pasha had a sickness a kind of idee fixe to attend evry possible place a german officer. However the germans didnt want to die at Turkish Front. At evry diffecult situation they receded their positions at the front leaving the positions to the British. As a matter of fact we had to take German Lt. Col. Pötrih (Poetrich, Pötrich (?) who was a railway officer off the duty who was confused againts a heavy British attack. For that reason the fights of August 8th was resoulted for us unsuccesfull."

"The german sources continiously write about the contribution of Liman Pasha and other german officers to the
success of Gallipoli fights. It is very strange that the British sources also continiously praise Liman Pasha and German Officers but not mention their unsuccess againts Turkish units and officers as if it was a degrading issue. I can say that the main and chief mistakes which was done during the fights at Gallipoli coused from Liman Pasha's decisions. His decision to wait a disembarkment from Bolayir made the III AC wait in town of Gallipoli. If German commander accepted our ideas he would wait for a disembarkment from south of Gallipoli peninsula and he would forward the III AC to that point early and had the possibility to throw back the ememy into the sea atthe moment of landing."

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Peter H
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Post by Peter H » 04 Aug 2007 01:46

Liman was a good,solid performer but he was not brilliant.One of his German superior's is quoted as saying the he "was unfit to command German troops".

The calibre of the junior German officers sent to Turkey however was exceptional.This is witnessed by how many advanced to senior positions after the war(Papen,Lossow etc).

One of the biggest problems between the Germans and Turks was the age difference.A German Oberst was most likely 50 years old and he was literally in most cases dealing with a 'Young Turk' 20 years younger than him.

I consider the technical expertise as provided by the Germans as the oil that lubricated the Ottoman war machine.

I am trying to get a copy of Travers' article but this is a summary of it:
Otto Liman von Sanders, commanding the Ottoman Fifth Army at Gallipoli in 1915, attempted to predict the future Allied landing sites. He correctly anticipated most of the actual landing sites of 25 April 1915, but he also focussed on the northern Bulair/Saros area. By chance, Lieutenant Palmer, a British naval intelligence officer, was captured by the Ottomans on 17 April after his submarine ran aground. Palmer's prisoner of war testimony emphasised the Bulair/Saros area. This evidence was disseminated, and seems likely to have influenced Liman von Sanders, who incorrectly focussed for three days on the Allied false landing at Bulair/Saros.

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