Identifying Turkish engineer units

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
trickcyclist
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Re: Identifying Turkish engineer units

#16

Post by trickcyclist » 24 Aug 2008, 23:39

Well, I only meant that the Turks would not have been able to do a large amount of damage. Certainly they would've been able to "kebab" some Brits and Anzacs, but as far as I can tell the Turks had a maximum of 24 flamethrowers in 1915, probably far fewer.

With less than 24 flamethrowers in total, they would've been able to inflict some casualties, but not as many as in the Battle of Skrobova, for example, on November 9, 1916, in which the Germans hit the Russians with a total of 216 portable flamethrowers and 24 large, in the biggest mass-flamethrower attack in history.

Also, the Turks would probably not have been very well trained in flamethrower usage at Gallipoli, since the German flamethrower battalion was only formed on March 15, 1915, and flamethrower tactics were created in the following three months.

At the beginning of the war, before the creation of the flamethrower battalion, German line-pioneer formations were issued one portable flamethrower for each platoon; it isn't clear how many pioneer formations were given the weapons. At the time the Germans gave the Turks flamethrowers, there was no training in flame tactics, only in how to fire the flamethrower.

As you say, it's good that the Turks didn't use the weapons. Good for the Brits and Anzacs, and good for the Turks, too.

Good for everyone!

trickcyclist
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Re: Identifying Turkish engineer units

#17

Post by trickcyclist » 24 Aug 2008, 23:59

By the way, can anybody identify German pioneer units that went to Turkey and/or Gallipoli in 1914 and 1915?

Thanks,
TC


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Bill Woerlee
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Re: Identifying Turkish engineer units

#18

Post by Bill Woerlee » 25 Aug 2008, 01:31

TC

G'day mate

You would do no better than to speak with Bob Lembke, a member of this forum and others, whose father was just one such man you are looking for in both categories - a pioneer volunteer at Gallipoli and a flame thrower operator on the Western Front. Just send him a PM and there is every possibility he will talk to you. He is quite a garrulous character and justifiably proud of his father's service.

As for Turkish use of flame throwers at Gallipoli, I am yet to find any reference to that in any allied source. There were not even any general warnings issued regarding flame throwers that I am aware of although many were issued regarding gas attacks.

Cheers

Bill

trickcyclist
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Re: Identifying Turkish engineer units

#19

Post by trickcyclist » 25 Aug 2008, 02:42

The references I mentioned earlier in the thread are the only ones I've found that mention Turkish flamethrowers at Gallipoli.

The Turks would've had the Kleif M.1912 at Gallipoli, which was issued with a protective face mask and operated by a crew of two: one man carried the flamethrower and aimed the rigid, swiveling lance, and the other opened the oil-pressurization valve on the tank and the block valve on the lance, spraying the oil. At this time there were no real flame tactics, however, other than "Burn up the enemy!"

This is what portable German flamethrowers looked like in 1914.
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stevebecker
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Re: Identifying Turkish engineer units

#20

Post by stevebecker » 25 Aug 2008, 04:37

Mate,

A Yank by the name of Bob Lemke is also working on a book about these flame troops as his father was in the German Flame units during WWI.

He should be on the net either here or on the 1914-1918 webb site and should give you what your after.

As to flame units yes the Storm Bn of the 15 Corps had them but they never took them when the two Divisions (19 and 20 Div's) were sent to Palestine.

The two major actions fought by this unit never used a flame thrower when they fought the Camel Bde at Bald Hill 27th Nov-5 Dec 1917 and against the 3rd LH Bde around the same time.

What happened to these flame thowers is unknown, could posibly stayed in the Galisa area.

You could look at "Turkish StormTroops" discussion at top of this webb page, as we have talked about these before.

S.B

trickcyclist
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Re: Identifying Turkish engineer units

#21

Post by trickcyclist » 25 Aug 2008, 05:36

Thanks, Steve.

I'll look at the Turkish stormtroops thread.

Cheers,
TC

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Re: Identifying Turkish engineer units

#22

Post by Tosun Saral » 25 Aug 2008, 12:14


trickcyclist
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Re: Identifying Turkish engineer units

#23

Post by trickcyclist » 27 Aug 2008, 11:37

Very interesting, Tosun. Thank you for posting it.

In 1915 the Germans used flamethrowers to spray poison gas at the Russian in Raw, Poland.

Your description sounds very similar to this operation: masks, "tubes" on the back, and "throwing" gas at the enemy.

Can you please provide the specific details of the newspaper article?

Article title, name of newspaper, date of publication, page numbers, and column numbers?

Thanks very much.

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K_Pax
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Re: Identifying Turkish engineer units

#24

Post by K_Pax » 03 Sep 2008, 23:04

Gentlemen,

I'm very glad to find this forum with so many well-informed persons - I finally have hope to get an answer:)

Generally, if you look at most sources, the info given about the Ottoman army at the outbreak of WWI regards to infantry divisions, cavalry brigades and regiments, artillery pieces and to navy vessels. But I've met difficulties while looking for an info on engineer (and other "technical" units) units at 1914.

I know that an engineer company was attached to every infantry division. But what about army corpses, or other engineer units subordinated to Chief Command? There were certainly some engineer batallions (regiments?) or construction-building units? I also guess, that there should be some railway units. Besides, there could be some "special" engineer units in fortified areas - am I right?
The same questions about signal and all other "technical" units (like motorized transport units, if there were any).

Secondly - what was the stanrard equipment of engineers, besides tools, spades, pixaxes: where there any mines, barbed wire, etc.? The same question about signal units (were they using telephones, telegraph, or something?)

Thirdly, how NCO's and oficcer staff was trained for engineers amd signal units - were there any military ot officer schools for that staff?

Any help will be appreciated - thanks in advance.

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Re: Identifying Turkish engineer units

#25

Post by Tosun Saral » 04 Sep 2008, 11:39

K_Pax well come to the forum. :D
visit my "I was a Turkish Signal Oficer"
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &sk=t&sd=a

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Re: Identifying Turkish engineer units

#26

Post by Tosun Saral » 04 Sep 2008, 12:22

The units of 3rd AC during Canakkale/Gallipoli fights:

. NCO Model Battalion
. 3rd 105 mm Obüs/Howitzer Battalion, 2 batteries with 4 obüs)
* 3rd Engineers Battalion with 4 companiaes
* 3rd Telgraf (Signal) company,
. An Engineers Construction battalion
. a Orderly squadron
* 3rd Communication Battalion
* A Team of Industry

The Commando of the Canakkale Forticication had:

A Fortress Engineers Company, An Enginneers Construction Company, A Telephone (Signal) company.

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K_Pax
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Re: Identifying Turkish engineer units

#27

Post by K_Pax » 04 Sep 2008, 13:17

Torsun,

Thank you very much for your answer.
What was the difference between SIgnal and Communication units - I mean, If I understand properly, Signal units operated telephones, telegraph etc. What was "communication" unit doing?

Regards

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Re: Identifying Turkish engineer units

#28

Post by Tosun Saral » 04 Sep 2008, 17:29

Sorry I should say "transport" not communication. "Ulaştırma" is in Turkish. They transported all kinds of material and soldiers with LKW's, carts, camels, donkeys, vessels. :D

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Re: Identifying Turkish engineer units

#29

Post by Tosun Saral » 04 Sep 2008, 17:58

All officers were trained together in the Harbiye the War School during Ottoman Empire. After the graduation Raillway, signal and engineer officers were trained at Macka Science Excercise School in Istanbul according their classification.
The Fen Tatbikat Okulu the Science Excercise School was moved to the township Mamak at Ankara in 1935. In 1948 all the different classes were seperated. The Signal remained in Mamak. The Enginering Scholl was moved to Eyüp later to Kağıthane in Istanbul.
The Railway units was abolished during 1949-50. Some of the The officers and NCOs were given to the order of sinal units some to Engineering and some to transport.

Lt. Col. Behiç Gülbahar, Chief Operations officer of Eailway units in 1936
source: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:7r ... cd=1&gl=uk
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Re: Identifying Turkish engineer units

#30

Post by jwsleser » 05 Sep 2008, 00:17

K_Pax

A good book to find is Handbook of the Turkish Army 1916. This book provides many of the answers you are looking for.

The prewar organization had three divisions in an army corps. Each corps was assigned one engineer battalion of four companies. For example, the IV Army Corps would have the 4th Engineer Battalion. The intent was that each division would have one engineer company attached, with the fourth company remaining under corps control. This system was very flexible, with the corps commander able to move and/or mass companies as needed. Signal detachments were assigned to divsions and corps.

During the war, this system continued in a modified form based on wartime conditions. After the first year of the war, not all the companies in a corps came from the same battalion. A corps might not have enough companies for all divisions. or able to maintain a company at corps level.

The specialist units tended to be authorized at the army level. Each army was to have a pontoon battalion, but a few existed. Railway units and the like were assigned where need, with no standard authorization.

Engineer equipment was what you listed; pickaxes, shovels, and felling axes. There were wireless and telegraph units with the appropriate equipment.

Jeff

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