What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
tiger1981
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by tiger1981 » 14 May 2015 18:08

The 16th Corps had probably begun attack before 3d Corps and 4th Corps In order to distract the attention of Russians from the main attack,Which 3d Corps and 4th Corps was doing.

stevebecker
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by stevebecker » 15 May 2015 01:08

Mate,

Yes your right, but I wonder if that was the reason?

The 3rd Army was attacked in Jan 1916 and fighting was going on around Erzerum (Erzurum Fortress captured Feb 1916 and Erzincan fell June 1916) but few (Turkish forces) were down south around the Van lakes.

Most having gone (disbanded or moved) by Dec 1915.

The 16th Corps arrived at Diyâr i Bekr around April 1916 so was well in position before the major units of the 2nd Army arrived some months later in June July 1916.

From what I understand units of the Russian 4th Caucasus Corps were still around the Van area, but could they advanced on the 16th Corps around Diyâr i Bekr in April 1916, I don't think so as the Russian forces were just as weak.

But with help of our Russians mates (Max and Alkan) we may soon find out what Russian forces they had during the Aug battles against the 2nd Army.

Cheers

S.B

tiger1981
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by tiger1981 » 17 May 2015 02:00

stevebecker wrote:Mate,

Yes your right, but I wonder if that was the reason?

The 3rd Army was attacked in Jan 1916 and fighting was going on around Erzerum (Erzurum Fortress captured Feb 1916 and Erzincan fell June 1916) but few (Turkish forces) were down south around the Van lakes.

Most having gone (disbanded or moved) by Dec 1915.

The 16th Corps arrived at Diyâr i Bekr around April 1916 so was well in position before the major units of the 2nd Army arrived some months later in June July 1916.

From what I understand units of the Russian 4th Caucasus Corps were still around the Van area, but could they advanced on the 16th Corps around Diyâr i Bekr in April 1916, I don't think so as the Russian forces were just as weak.

The Russian major units were attacking against 3rd Ottoman army in the north, while secondary units were attacking in the south.
Before Aug 1916 5th Corps arrived and joined to 3rd Ottoman army under the leadership of Vehib Pasha.
Vehib Pasha was organizing the defense in the north and launched a counter-attack to recapture Trebizon.

While 16th Corps arrived also before Aug 1916 and Ataturk was organizing the defense in the south.

In Aug 1916 16th Corps go to the attack , Then 2nd Corps and 3rd Corps had begun attack too.
Ottoman attacks were successful in the beginning , But The Russians strengthen their lines and were strong enough to respond with counteroffensives.

If you notice that the northern front was quiet in Aug and Sep 1916 and the Russian attack against The 3rd Ottoman army stooped.
It is meaning that Russians moved their forces to the south to facing the attack of the Ottoman 2nd army.
Last edited by tiger1981 on 17 May 2015 03:19, edited 1 time in total.

tiger1981
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by tiger1981 » 17 May 2015 02:08

stevebecker wrote:
But with help of our Russians mates (Max and Alkan) we may soon find out what Russian forces they had during the Aug battles against the 2nd Army.
I know the Russian language very well and I have looked up in the Russian sources.
But i can not find details about the battle in Aug 1916.

If our Russians mates can show me the Russian sources about this battles in Aug 1916, I will be grateful to them.

maxnechitaylov
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by maxnechitaylov » 17 May 2015 04:53

See Maslovskiy 1933, p. 402-403 (august 1916 - attack of IV and I Caucasian AC; attack of Turkish II Army); Korsun 1946, p. 72-74.

Rostunov 1975 (according Korsun):
Неоднократный разгром 3-й турецкой армии, потеря Эрзерума, Трапезунда, Эрзинджана не лишили турецкое командование надежд на успех и не изменили его планов использования 2-й турецкой армии. Русские имели сведения о силах и намерениях турок. План турецкого командования заключался в том, чтобы сковать русских на фронте 3-й турецкой армии, а силами 2-й армии нанести удар в направлении от Харпут на Кепри-кей в обход Эрзерума с юго-востока{240}. В случае успеха турки могли прижать к Черному морю силы русских 2-го Туркестанского, 5-го и 1-го Кавказских корпусов. Для парирования готовящегося удара русское командование перебрасывало силы на участок фронта Киги, Муш.
Наступление 2-й турецкой армии на огнотском направлении началось 23 июля (5 августа). С трудом сдерживая натиск турок, русские отошли. Русское командование выдвинуло на правый фланг 4-го Кавказского корпуса значительные силы, которые наступательными действиями с 4 (17) по 11 (24) августа восстановили положение. В дальнейшем русские и турки попеременно предпринимали наступательные действия, и успех склонялся то в ту, то в другую сторону. На некоторых участках удалось продвинуться русским, но на других им пришлось оставить позиции. Без особенно крупных успехов с обеих сторон бои шли до 29 августа (11 сентября), когда в горах выпал снег и ударил мороз, заставивший противников прекратить боевые действия и спешно готовиться к зимовке{241}. С началом зимних холодов обе стороны до весны перешли к обороне.
The Russian elephant is a best friend of the Finnish elephant

tiger1981
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by tiger1981 » 17 May 2015 09:12

Спасибо огромное друг мой.
Эти очень важные информации
maxnechitaylov wrote: Неоднократный разгром 3-й турецкой армии, потеря Эрзерума, Трапезунда, Эрзинджана не лишили турецкое командование надежд на успех и не изменили его планов использования 2-й турецкой армии. Русские имели сведения о силах и намерениях турок. План турецкого командования заключался в том, чтобы сковать русских на фронте 3-й турецкой армии, а силами 2-й армии нанести удар в направлении от Харпут на Кепри-кей в обход Эрзерума с юго-востока{240}. В случае успеха турки могли прижать к Черному морю силы русских 2-го Туркестанского, 5-го и 1-го Кавказских корпусов. Для парирования готовящегося удара русское командование перебрасывало силы на участок фронта Киги, Муш.
Наступление 2-й турецкой армии на огнотском направлении началось 23 июля (5 августа). С трудом сдерживая натиск турок, русские отошли. Русское командование выдвинуло на правый фланг 4-го Кавказского корпуса значительные силы, которые наступательными действиями с 4 (17) по 11 (24) августа восстановили положение. В дальнейшем русские и турки попеременно предпринимали наступательные действия, и успех склонялся то в ту, то в другую сторону. На некоторых участках удалось продвинуться русским, но на других им пришлось оставить позиции. Без особенно крупных успехов с обеих сторон бои шли до 29 августа (11 сентября), когда в горах выпал снег и ударил мороз, заставивший противников прекратить боевые действия и спешно готовиться к зимовке{241}. С началом зимних холодов обе стороны до весны перешли к обороне.
translation:

Repeated defeat of 3rd Turkish army, and loss of Erzurum and Trebizon and Erzincan, did not make the Turkish command lose hope to success, and did not change its plans to use 2nd Turkish army.
Russians had information about Turkish forces and intentions. The plan of Turkish command was consisting of tying up Russians in front of 3rd Turkish army, and attack by forces of 2nd army from Kharput toward Kepri-key for surrounding Erzurum from southeast.
If Turks succeeded, they could to push Russian Turkestan 2nd, 5th and 1st Caucasian Corps to the Black Sea. To avoid processed strike, Russian command moved troops to section of the front Kigi and Mush. The attack of 2nd Turkish army on the direction of Agnot had been begun in 23 Jul (5 Aug). Difficulty restraining the Turkish attack, Russian withdrew.
Russian command moved considerable forces to the right flank of the 4th Caucasus Corps, this forces could to restore the situation by offensives from 4(17) to 11(24) Aug. later Russians and Turks were attacking alternately , success was inclined to the one side or the other.
In some areas Russians could to advance, but in another they had left the positions. The fighting was going without big success on both sides until 29 Aug (11 Sep) , when the snow fell in the mountains and the frost hits , the frost forced both sides to stop fighting and to prepare for winter hastily. With the onset of cold winter weather both sides went on the defensive until the spring.
Last edited by tiger1981 on 17 May 2015 17:55, edited 1 time in total.

tiger1981
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by tiger1981 » 17 May 2015 09:31

Kharput = Ma’mûret el Azîz (Mamuret-ül Aziz) is today's Elazığ a provincial capital city of Turkey.

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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by maxnechitaylov » 17 May 2015 17:05

The Russian elephant is a best friend of the Finnish elephant

tiger1981
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by tiger1981 » 17 May 2015 17:57

Ещё раз спасибо.
Вы мне очень помогли.

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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by maxnechitaylov » 17 May 2015 18:57

Anytime! You are welcome!
The Russian elephant is a best friend of the Finnish elephant

tiger1981
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by tiger1981 » 17 May 2015 21:05

Kepri-key = Köprüköy, is a town and district of Erzurum Province.

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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by tiger1981 » 17 May 2015 21:22

attack by forces of 2nd army from Kharput toward Kepri-key for surrounding Erzurum from southeast.

Kharput = Ma’mûret el Azîz (Mamuret-ül Aziz) is today's Elazığ.

https://www.google.com.iq/maps/place/El ... IgBEPIBMA4

Kepri-key = Köprüköy

https://www.google.com.iq/maps/place/K% ... 006573f8d9

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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by stevebecker » 17 May 2015 23:44

Mates,

You mentioned a new Russian Corps in the order of battle. Is this the place to discuss the Russian Army during the 1916 offensive, as I was going to ask in the other comments area?

Invasion force Jan 1916

Turkestan 2nd, 5th (new) and 1st Caucasian Corps with 4th Caucasus Corps still down around Van.

Can you now fill in the blanks during 1916 from Jan up to and including the Aug battles?

Since most of those forces in Aug are the same ones that started the offensive in Jan 1916.

Cheers

S.B

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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by maxnechitaylov » 18 May 2015 12:09

Attack of II Turkish Army, 23.VII.1916: against the right flank of IV Caucasian AC.
by 4.VIII.1916 this corps is strengthened by such units: detachment of gen. Dubisskiy (5th Caucasian rifle div. - 18 btns; 2nd Kuban Plastun bde) + detachment (group) of gen. Nicolaev (10 btns, 8 druzhinas, 9 sotnias) = strike group
Russian advance 4-11.VIII.1916: IV Caucasian AC + Strike group; reserve: 4th Caucasian Rifle Division (16 btns).
Russian advance 15-18.VIII.1916: IV Cauc. AC + Dubisskiy's detachment

Attack of III Turkish Army 18-30.VIII.1916: against II Turkestan AC and I Caucasian AC.
The Russian elephant is a best friend of the Finnish elephant

tiger1981
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by tiger1981 » 18 May 2015 23:16

As I read in Russian sources, who friend maxnechitaylov gave to me: This battles called in Russian sources (Огнотская опперация=Operation of Ognot).

I have looked about this operation in the Russian Internet pages, and i have fined important information.
Russian order of battle in Aug 1916:
1- 5th Caucasus Army Corps in the north (south of coast of Black Sea).
2- 2ns Turkistan Army Corps in the south of 5th Caucasus Army Corps.
3- 1th Caucasus Army Corps in the south of 2ns Turkistan Army Corps (in the direction of the Erzurum-Erzincan).
4- 4th Caucasus Army Corps + Armenian units in the south of 1th Caucasus Army Corps (on the line: Kigi - Ognot - Lack of Van ).
5- Caucasian Cavalry Corps in Persia.
6- 2nd Caucasian Cavalry Corps in Persia was formed in Jun 1916 (renamed to 7th Caucasus Army Corps in Feb 1917).
7- In the battles or after the battles 6th Caucasus Army Corps was formed, this Corps is consists of: 4th Caucasian rifle div + 5th Caucasian rifle div + 2nd Kuban Plastun bde. 6th Caucasus Army Corps took position between 1th Caucasus Army Corps and 4th Caucasus Army Corps.
Last edited by tiger1981 on 18 May 2015 23:31, edited 2 times in total.

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