What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
stevebecker
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by stevebecker » 24 May 2015 23:36

Max,

amazing details on the Milita units, thanks mate.

Just to fix some other units;

Persian Cossack bde renamed Persian Cossack Div 1-17
2 companies one sotnia Cossack Cav 2 guns

This seams a bit small are there any more details on this unit from Bde to Div.

also any details on these bdes?

1st Transcaucasian Rifle bde 6xBns one druzhina (Militia Bn)
2nd Transcaucasian Rifle Bde 6xBns one druzhina (Militia Bn)

what was the make up of The Border Guards Bdes

(25th 26th and 27th)

Each must of had at lest four Bns and a cav sotnia, any ideas?

Cheers

S.B

maxnechitaylov
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by maxnechitaylov » 25 May 2015 19:25

Persian Cossack bde renamed Persian Cossack Div 1-17
2 companies one sotnia Cossack Cav 2 guns
This seams a bit small are there any more details on this unit from Bde to Div.
Listed only those units which were at war together with Baratov's Corps.
Full establishment of the His Majesty Shah's Cossack Brigade: 4 cavalry rgts (2 sqns at each); two horse batteries = 8 guns; Plastun Btn (4 comp.).
also any details on these bdes?
1st Transcaucasian Rifle bde: Transcaucasian Rifle Btns 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 (ex-Militia Druzhinas 542, 545, 566, 583, 588, 589)
2nd Transcaucasian Rifle Bde: Transcaucasian Rifle Btns 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 (ex-Militia druzhinas 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198)
In March, 1916 1st and 2nd Transcaucasian Rifle Bdes were raised of 2nd Caucasian Militia Bde (raised 1914) and 33th Militia Bde (raised 1914) respectively.
In June, 1916 from these brigades are formed 21, 22, 23, 24 Caucasian Rifle rgts (6th Caucasian Rifle Division).
what was the make up of The Border Guards Bdes
(25th 26th and 27th)
Each must of had at lest four Bns and a cav sotnia, any ideas?
From the beginning of war on the regions adjoining the area of military operations, the Frontier Guard were concentrated in battalions and sotnias (part of 25th (Black Sea's; Batum) Frontier Bde - 1 btn and 1 sotnia; 26th (Kars's; Kagyzman) and 27th (Erivan's; Erevan) Frontier Bdes - 4 btns and 8 sotnias; 5 btns and 9 sotnias in all) and were a part of active army. Other units (part of 25th bde; 28th and 29th bdes) continued to protect the coast of the Black Sea and Russian-Iranian border.

3.VIII.1915:
- raised Separate Caucasian Infantry Btn (of five sotnias of 25th Frontier Bde);
- renamed Caucasian Frontier Infantry Rgt as 1st Caucasian Frontier Infantry rgt;
- raised 2nd Caucasian Frontier Infantry Rgt (of eight foot sotnias of 26th Frontier Bde);
- raised 3rd Caucasian Frontier Infantry Rgt (of eight foot sotnias of 27th Frontier Bde);
- raised 1st (of four horse sotnias of 26th Fr. Bde) and 2nd (of four horse sotnias of 27th Fr. Bde) Caucasian Cavalry rgts.

By the way: 23rd Turkestan Rifle Rgt raised in the Caucasus in the early, 1915.
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stevebecker
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by stevebecker » 26 May 2015 00:06

Max,

Thanks mate.

On going throw the lists I notice this unit which I missed, any more details on it?

Transcaspian (Zakaspiyskaia) Cossack Bde -

General Nicolaev later commanded the 5th Caucasian Cossack Div

how did I mess these units up?

5th Caucasian Cossack Div 11-15 Gen Nicolaev

3rd Lineyniy cossack Regt
3rd Ekaterinoslavskiy cossack Regt
(-) 55th Don Cossack Regt to 5th Caucasus Corps 4-16

4th Kuban cossack bty (6 guns) + 6th Kuban cossack bty (6 guns) 3-16

or

5th Caucasian Cossack Div Gen Nicolaev

1st (Terek Cossack Host) Regt
2nd (Terek Cossack Host) Regt
three Special Horse Sotnias of (Kuban Cossack host) Regt

1st and 5th Kuban cossack btys (12 guns?)

Cheers

S.B

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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by maxnechitaylov » 26 May 2015 11:26

Transcaspian (Zakaspiyskaia) Cossack Bde -
1st Caucasian rgt of Kuban Cossack Host
1st Tamanskiy rgt of Kuban Cossack host
4th Kuban Cossack battery
5th Caucasian Cossack Div 11-15
Gen Nicolaev, ex-commander of the Transcaspian Coss. bde
22.VII(4.VIII).1915 (or - middle/late, July; or - 4(17).VIII): formed Combined Cossack Division (from Separate Transcaspian Cossack Bde, 55th Don Cossack rgt, 3rd Lineyniy Coss. rgt and 3rd Ekaterinodarskiy coss. rgt of Kuban host, 4th Kuban cossack battery) l.-g. Nicolaev
Late, 1915: renamed as 5th Caucasian Cossack Division
March 1916: added 6th Kuban cossack battery
April 1916: 55th Don coss. rgt transfer to V Caucasian AC
3(16).V.1917: Division sent to the Western front (Finland)
BO:
On 1.IX.1915: (yet as Combined Cossack Division) in IV Caucasian AC
On 20.XII.1915; on I.VI.1916; on 1.I.1917: in I Caucasian AC


Commanders:
since the beginning - 15.XI.1916: m.-g. (l.-g. 21.VII.1915) Nicolaev, Andrey Mikhaylovich
15.XI.1916 - 2.IX.1917: l.-g. Tomashevskiy, Sergey Vladimirovich
since 2.IX.1917: m.-g. Chiorniy, Konstantin Konstantinovich

Establishment:
1st Bde: ex-Transcaspian Cossack bde (1st Kavkazskiy, 1st Tamanskiy rgts)
2nd bde: 3rd Lineyniy cossack Regt, 3rd Ekaterinoslavskiy cossack Regt
Separately from brigades: 55th Don Cossack Regt to 5th Caucasian AC 4-16
4th Kuban cossack bty (6 guns) + 6th Kuban cossack bty (6 guns) since 3-16
or
5th Caucasian Cossack Div Gen Nicolaev
1st (Terek Cossack Host) Regt: never existed; NB: each regiment in Caucasian Cossack hosts carried the personal number and the personal name
2nd (Terek Cossack Host) Regt: never existed
three Special Horse Sotnias of (Kuban Cossack host) Regt: these sotnias were separate units, always
1st and 5th Kuban cossack btys (12 guns?): in 2nd Caucasian Cossack Division
Listen, where you take it?!
If from here:
Transcaspian Cossack Bde + two rgts of Terek cossack host [3rd Kizliaro-Grebenskiy and 3rd Volgskiy] + three Special Horse Sotnias of Kuban Cossack host + 1st and 5th Kuban cossack batteries
It's all cossack units (+ four rgts of 2nd Caucasian Cossack Division) of IV Caucasian AC.
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by stevebecker » 27 May 2015 00:14

Max,

Thanks mate yes I notice my mistake but needed to confirm wear I made it.

Just to ask did this Div have Bde commanders?

Combined Cossack Div 9-15 reformed as 5th Caucasian Cossack Div 12-15

1st Bde: ex-Transcaspian Cossack bde (1st Kavkazskiy, 1st Tamanskiy rgts)
2nd bde: 3rd Lineyniy cossack Regt, 3rd Ekaterinoslavskiy cossack Regt

An other part I made a mistake can you fix?

4th Caucasian Cossack Div (1915) - Gen Chernozubov

2nd Zabaikalskaya cossack Bde Gen Nazarov
1st Sunzhensko-Vladikavkazskiy (Terek Cossack Host) Regt
1st Poltavskiy (Kuban) Regt

3rd Zabaikalskaya cossack bde Gen Semionov
3rd Tamanskiy (Kuban host) Regt
3rd Kubanskiy (Kuban) Regt

(No artillery?)

4th Caucasian Cossack Div (1916) - Gen Filimonov

2nd Zabaikalskaya cossack Bde Gen Nazarov
1st Sunzhensko-Vladikavkazskiy (Terek Cossack Host) Regt
1st Poltavskiy (Kuban) Regt
2nd Zabaikalskaya cossack Bty (6 guns)

3rd Zabaikalskaya cossack bde Gen Semionov
3rd Tamanskiy (Kuban host) Regt
3rd Kubanskiy (Kuban) Regt
3rd Zabaikalskaya cossack Bty (6 guns)

Can you confirm Div commanders and what Artillery was in this Div in 1915 and 1916

Cheers

S.B

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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by maxnechitaylov » 27 May 2015 13:49

Just to ask did this Div have Bde commanders?
Combined Cossack Div 9-15 reformed as 5th Caucasian Cossack Div 12-15
1st Bde (ex-Transcaspian Cossack bde = 1st Kavkazskiy, 1st Tamanskiy rgts):
8.II.1916 - 26.IX.1917: colonel (since 22.X.1916 m.-g.) Kolesnikov, Ivan Nikiforovich

2nd bde (3rd Lineyniy cossack Regt, 3rd Ekaterinoslavskiy cossack Regt):
since 31.VIII.1916: m.-g. Filippov, Piotr Grigorievich
An other part I made a mistake can you fix?
4th Caucasian Cossack Div
m.-g. (l.-g. 18.VI.1915) Chernozubov, Fiodor Grigorievich (1.IV.1915 - 4.VII.1916?)
m.-g. Filimonov, Fiodor Petrovich (25.VIII.1916 - 1917)

1st bde: 1st Poltavskiy (Kuban) Regt, 1st Sunzhensko-Vladikavkazskiy (Terek Cossack Host) Regt
2nd bde: 3rd Kubanskiy (Kuban) Regt, 3rd Tamanskiy (Kuban host) Regt
April, 1916 - Summer 1916: 6th Kuban cossack bry

2nd Zabaikalskaya cossack Bde
2nd Chitinskiy, 2nd Nerchinskiy rgts of Zabaikalskoe Cossack Host, 4th Zabaikalskaia cossack bry = 6 guns
Commander:
3.IX.1914 - 1915: l.-g. [sic!] Trukhin, Ivan Evdokimovich;
4.II.1916 - 24.III.1917: m.-g. Nazarov, Anatoliy Mikhaylovich

Brigade since 1915 in the Caucasus. In IV Caucasian AC, later in Van-Azerbaijan detachment / II Caucasian Cavalry Corps / VII Caucasian AC.

3rd Zabaikalskaya cossack bde
3rd Verkhneudinskiy, 2nd Argunskiy rgts of Zabaikalskoe Cossack Host, 2nd Zabaikalskaia cossack bry = 6 guns
Commander:
22.X.1914 - 30.XII.1915: m.-g. Stoianovskiy, Konstantin Nikitich [Kuban cossack, by the way];
1917: colonel (m.-g. 3.VI.1917) Semionov, Dmitriy Frolovich

Brigade since 1915 in the Caucasus. In Van-Azerbaijan detachment; sent to Persia (April, 1915); in Charpantier's Van reid (May, 1915); Urmiyskiy [Urmia] detachment (during the Erzerum operation); later in II Caucasian Cavalry Corps / VII Caucasian AC.
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by stevebecker » 27 May 2015 23:36

Max,

Thank you.

Just to ask what is "sent to Persia (April, 1915" and "Charpantier's Van reid (May, 1915);" you mentioned?

There was a Russian force sent to advance around Kermanshah in early 1915.

A Turkish force under Hüseyin Rauf Orbay with at lest two battalions of the Van Jandarma Regt fought them around June 1915.

Any ideas

S.B

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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by maxnechitaylov » 28 May 2015 18:21

Charpantier (Sharpantie): cavalry raid in Persia, from May 9-10, 1915 till June 10, 1915, from Tebreez (through Van - passed it on June 6) to Adiljevaz, round the Urmia Lake (North-Western coast), to positions of IV Caucasian AC. Troops: gen. Charpanier's detachment - Caucasian Cavalry Div. (Charpantier; 16, 17, 18 Dragoons Rgts, 1st Khoperskiy rgt of Kuban Cossack Host) and 3rd Zabaikalskaia Coss. bde (Stoianovskiy; two rgts, one bry) = 6 rgts, 12 mountain guns, 10 field guns, 8 machine guns. Without serious combats with Kurds and Turks. May, 18, at Ushnue: beat out a Turkish Gendarme Btn and the Kurds from the town.

(since June 12, 1915) on the southern coast of the Urmia lake advanced gen. Trukhin's detachment (2nd Zabaikalskaia Coss. bde, 2nd Caucasian mountain bry, one btn and one sotnia of Frontier Guard, four Armenian druzhinas) to Sorp village (50 versts from Bitlis).
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stevebecker
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by stevebecker » 29 May 2015 00:37

Max,

Thank you very interesting these small unit actions.

Its amazing with the 3rd Turkish Army defeated only small Turkish forces were around Van when the 4th Cauc Corps came to attack Van.

No large Turkish forces appear to show up till the 1st and 5th Expeditionary Force around June 1915 to support the Van Division and its Cav Bde.

These men and allies (Kurds and such) held off the 4th Cauc Corps which was a large force along with the local uprising by other ethnic groups.

Cheers

S.B

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