1st Canal Expedition Egypt
-
- Member
- Posts: 1468
- Joined: 01 Jul 2006, 04:04
- Location: Australia
Re: 1st Canal Expedition Egypt
Tosun,
I show that the German Maj Hunger commanded the 28th Regt, but not at this battle as he appears on the list of Germans at 1st Expeditionary Force (1st Canal Expeditionary Force HQ. (staff officers Col Trommer (G) Maj Hunger & Maj Laufen Capt Vd Hagan KIA 2-15 & Gerlach & Heiben and Rittermeister Welsch )
The 3rd Bn /28th Regt in shown as Maj Numan (this appears to be a German name or is he Turkish?)
Cheers
S.B
I show that the German Maj Hunger commanded the 28th Regt, but not at this battle as he appears on the list of Germans at 1st Expeditionary Force (1st Canal Expeditionary Force HQ. (staff officers Col Trommer (G) Maj Hunger & Maj Laufen Capt Vd Hagan KIA 2-15 & Gerlach & Heiben and Rittermeister Welsch )
The 3rd Bn /28th Regt in shown as Maj Numan (this appears to be a German name or is he Turkish?)
Cheers
S.B
Re: 1st Canal Expedition Egypt
Steve
Here the 13 German officers who accompany the expedition. (As far as I know)
Oberst Friedrich Freiherr Kress von Kressenstein, seit 21.09.1914 Chef des Stabes des VIII. türkischen Armeekorps
Oberst Werner von Frankenberg und Proschlitz, Chef des Stabes der IV. Armee
Oberst Bruno Traugott Karl Frommer / Trommer Pascha, Kommandeur der 10. Inf.- Division,
Major Karl Wilhelm von dem Hagen, (stellvertr.) Kommandeur des 73. Inf.- Regiment der 25. Inf.- Division
Major Herbert Fischer, (stellvertr.) Kommandeur des 68. Inf.- Regiment
Major Hunger, (stellvertr.) Kommandeur des 30. Inf.- Regiment der 10. türkischen Inf.- Division in der II. Staffel.
Major Welsch, (stellvertr.) Kommandeur des 80. Inf.- Regiment der 27. Inf.- Division,
Hauptmann Adolf Fischer, führender Offizier der Pionier-Vorausabteilung
Hauptmann Gerlach, Pionier-Instrukteur und Kommandeur des 8. Pionier- Bataillons
Hauptmann Heibey, Artillerie-Instrukteur und Kommandeur der 15-cm-Feldhaubitzen-Batterie
Hauptmann Maschmeyer, Kommandeur der Nachhut (bis zum März 1915)
Leutnant Erich Heiden, Artillerie-Instrukteur und Kommandeur einer (7,5-cm ?) Feldkanonen-Batterie
Vizekonsul Dr. Max Curt Prüfer, politischer Berater und nachrichtendienstlicher Mitarbeiter des AA beim VIII. Armeekorps
Ein Major Laufen wird wohl noch in dem Band; Der Weltkrieg, Band 9, in der Fußnote auf Seite 15, aufgeführt. Das Werk steht aber derzeit hier nicht zu Verfügung.
Furthermore the German battle installation:
Cheers Holger
Here the 13 German officers who accompany the expedition. (As far as I know)
Oberst Friedrich Freiherr Kress von Kressenstein, seit 21.09.1914 Chef des Stabes des VIII. türkischen Armeekorps
Oberst Werner von Frankenberg und Proschlitz, Chef des Stabes der IV. Armee
Oberst Bruno Traugott Karl Frommer / Trommer Pascha, Kommandeur der 10. Inf.- Division,
Major Karl Wilhelm von dem Hagen, (stellvertr.) Kommandeur des 73. Inf.- Regiment der 25. Inf.- Division
Major Herbert Fischer, (stellvertr.) Kommandeur des 68. Inf.- Regiment
Major Hunger, (stellvertr.) Kommandeur des 30. Inf.- Regiment der 10. türkischen Inf.- Division in der II. Staffel.
Major Welsch, (stellvertr.) Kommandeur des 80. Inf.- Regiment der 27. Inf.- Division,
Hauptmann Adolf Fischer, führender Offizier der Pionier-Vorausabteilung
Hauptmann Gerlach, Pionier-Instrukteur und Kommandeur des 8. Pionier- Bataillons
Hauptmann Heibey, Artillerie-Instrukteur und Kommandeur der 15-cm-Feldhaubitzen-Batterie
Hauptmann Maschmeyer, Kommandeur der Nachhut (bis zum März 1915)
Leutnant Erich Heiden, Artillerie-Instrukteur und Kommandeur einer (7,5-cm ?) Feldkanonen-Batterie
Vizekonsul Dr. Max Curt Prüfer, politischer Berater und nachrichtendienstlicher Mitarbeiter des AA beim VIII. Armeekorps
Ein Major Laufen wird wohl noch in dem Band; Der Weltkrieg, Band 9, in der Fußnote auf Seite 15, aufgeführt. Das Werk steht aber derzeit hier nicht zu Verfügung.
Furthermore the German battle installation:
Cheers Holger
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
-
- Member
- Posts: 1468
- Joined: 01 Jul 2006, 04:04
- Location: Australia
Re: 1st Canal Expedition Egypt
Holger,
Danke
Great mate its the first detailed look at this force I've seen.
Does present some problems, Maj Hunger now with the 30th Regt not the 28th Regt as all records show him?
80th Regt was it Maj Welsch or Maj Rifit Bey as the commander as the document shows?
My German is not that good but the Artillery of the Right Column under Maj Rifit 80th Regt
Does that show half Battery 1st Bty 27th FAR (Mantel) and 5th Bty 27th FAR (gebirgsgesh) is that Mountain?
Arab commander Maj Mumtaz Bey (is that a German or Turkish officer?)
What is 4 Kamelkol Bn (gemischt) - (is that camel?)
Its that LtCol Bechdschet Bey 81st Regt? as Turkish records mention a LtCol Hamdi Bey or Maj Hilmi
Cheers
S.B
Danke
Great mate its the first detailed look at this force I've seen.
Does present some problems, Maj Hunger now with the 30th Regt not the 28th Regt as all records show him?
80th Regt was it Maj Welsch or Maj Rifit Bey as the commander as the document shows?
My German is not that good but the Artillery of the Right Column under Maj Rifit 80th Regt
Does that show half Battery 1st Bty 27th FAR (Mantel) and 5th Bty 27th FAR (gebirgsgesh) is that Mountain?
Arab commander Maj Mumtaz Bey (is that a German or Turkish officer?)
What is 4 Kamelkol Bn (gemischt) - (is that camel?)
Its that LtCol Bechdschet Bey 81st Regt? as Turkish records mention a LtCol Hamdi Bey or Maj Hilmi
Cheers
S.B
Re: 1st Canal Expedition Egypt
Steve,
Sorry for the missing English translation, but I copied this only from my files `in a rush´.
A few years ago I was intensively involved between Yemen and Egypt in a German Forum:
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... c&start=90
The account and other maps are from the Bavarian Central Archive in Munich, department IV, War-archive, File MKr. 1782/ 2
http://www.gda.bayern.de/archive/hauptstaatsarchiv/40
Also included are 112 pages, secret and not published battle reports, but of course all in German language.
Coming back to your detail questions:
But not every German officer were official transferred into the Turkish army and received a Turkish rank.
Major Welsch wrote on the 25th February 1915 a detail battel report with 12 pages to Colonel Freiherr von Kress about the:
“Orientation about the events at the right column.“ Below the upper edge of the first page. (I can send you all)
5. / Felda. 27 (Gebirgsgesch) = expected a battery 6-cm or 7,5-cm-Krupp-Mountain guns
I think each is a full battery (with 4 or 6 guns) of the 27th Artillery detachment
This is a Turkish Officer. It’s the same Major Mümtaz, who occupied El Arisch in 1914
I don´t know what they mean with mixed.
Bechdschet Bey wasn’t mentioned as Commander of the 81th Regiment, only as Commander of the Border guards.
Here in the AHF also topic´s about this `1st Expedition, but in another subdivision
Sinai 1914-1918.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=221333
Here I add also a rough overlook with maps about the strategically final aim of this
Turkish-German Operation into the direction of Africa, which was also based on
secret files in the German Political Archive of the Federal Foreign Office in Berlin.
German mainland reinforcements to East African Troops?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3&t=220125
Maybe it helps.
Cheers Holger
Sorry for the missing English translation, but I copied this only from my files `in a rush´.
A few years ago I was intensively involved between Yemen and Egypt in a German Forum:
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... c&start=90
The account and other maps are from the Bavarian Central Archive in Munich, department IV, War-archive, File MKr. 1782/ 2
http://www.gda.bayern.de/archive/hauptstaatsarchiv/40
Also included are 112 pages, secret and not published battle reports, but of course all in German language.
Coming back to your detail questions:
Here could have the right. !?! Colonel Freiherr von Kress mentioned only about Majors Hunger´s Regiment at the left wing.Does present some problems, Maj Hunger now with the 30th Regt not the 28th Regt as all records show him?
Official every Turkish unit were led by a Turkish officer and the German officers were listed only as deputies.80th Regt was it Maj Welsch or Maj Rifit Bey as the commander as the document shows?
But not every German officer were official transferred into the Turkish army and received a Turkish rank.
Major Welsch wrote on the 25th February 1915 a detail battel report with 12 pages to Colonel Freiherr von Kress about the:
“Orientation about the events at the right column.“ Below the upper edge of the first page. (I can send you all)
1. / Felda. 27 (Mantel) = Turkish: Manteli / expected a battery 8,8-cm or 7.85-cm-Krupp-Fieldguns C1873 (or older)My German is not that good but the Artillery of the Right Column under Maj Rifit 80th Regt
Does that show half Battery 1st Bty 27th FAR (Mantel) and 5th Bty 27th FAR (gebirgsgesh) is that Mountain?
5. / Felda. 27 (Gebirgsgesch) = expected a battery 6-cm or 7,5-cm-Krupp-Mountain guns
I think each is a full battery (with 4 or 6 guns) of the 27th Artillery detachment
Beduinen-Kommandeur = Bedouin commanderArab commander Maj Mümtaz Bey (is that a German or Turkish officer?)
This is a Turkish Officer. It’s the same Major Mümtaz, who occupied El Arisch in 1914
4. Kamelkol. Batl. (gemischt) = 4th Camel column Battalion (mixed)What is 4 Kamelkol Bn (gemischt) - (is that camel?)
I don´t know what they mean with mixed.
Grenzschutztuppen: Kommandeur Oberst Bechdschet Bey = Border Guards: Commander Colonel Bechdschet BeyIts that LtCol Bechdschet Bey 81st Regt? as Turkish records mention a LtCol Hamdi Bey or Maj Hilmi
Bechdschet Bey wasn’t mentioned as Commander of the 81th Regiment, only as Commander of the Border guards.
Here in the AHF also topic´s about this `1st Expedition, but in another subdivision
Sinai 1914-1918.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=221333
Here I add also a rough overlook with maps about the strategically final aim of this
Turkish-German Operation into the direction of Africa, which was also based on
secret files in the German Political Archive of the Federal Foreign Office in Berlin.
German mainland reinforcements to East African Troops?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3&t=220125
Maybe it helps.
Cheers Holger
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
-
- Member
- Posts: 1468
- Joined: 01 Jul 2006, 04:04
- Location: Australia
Re: 1st Canal Expedition Egypt
Mate,
Thank you for that.
Cheers
S.B
Thank you for that.
Cheers
S.B
Re: 1st Canal Expedition Egypt
.
A contemporary British military commentator, Major General Sir MGE Bowman-Manifold, made an objective
assessment of the enemy's achievement. (Maybe that’s the reason that his work wasn´t really successful?!?)
"The Turkish effort deserves admiration. To bring thousands of men, artillery and a pontoon train across one hundred and
forty miles (225 kms) of desert was creditable. To assault a front defended potentially by seventy-thousand men and the
heavy metal of ships' armament was audacious. To depart again with artillery and baggage intact and with a loss of not
ten per cent of infantry was clear gain and left the defenders with little to boast of." (!!!)
.
A contemporary British military commentator, Major General Sir MGE Bowman-Manifold, made an objective
assessment of the enemy's achievement. (Maybe that’s the reason that his work wasn´t really successful?!?)
"The Turkish effort deserves admiration. To bring thousands of men, artillery and a pontoon train across one hundred and
forty miles (225 kms) of desert was creditable. To assault a front defended potentially by seventy-thousand men and the
heavy metal of ships' armament was audacious. To depart again with artillery and baggage intact and with a loss of not
ten per cent of infantry was clear gain and left the defenders with little to boast of." (!!!)
.
“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. . . . All History was a
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary” – G. ORWELL 1984
-
- Member
- Posts: 1468
- Joined: 01 Jul 2006, 04:04
- Location: Australia
Re: 1st Canal Expedition Egypt
Mate,
What I also found interesting was the use of the central route throw Sinai for the main effort, not the northern route which was used as a secondary route.
The German list shows the admin units to carry the stores and equiptment, where few lists give us this in Turkish sources.
Although I can't understand the German of most of those shown on that list, it does give me an insight into what they brought with them.
Cheers
S.B
What I also found interesting was the use of the central route throw Sinai for the main effort, not the northern route which was used as a secondary route.
The German list shows the admin units to carry the stores and equiptment, where few lists give us this in Turkish sources.
Although I can't understand the German of most of those shown on that list, it does give me an insight into what they brought with them.
Cheers
S.B