Arabic Requirement for Officials/Military Command

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
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Philip Loftus
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Arabic Requirement for Officials/Military Command

#1

Post by Philip Loftus » 21 Oct 2017, 06:55

Hello Everyone

Thank you for the easy registration process on this forum.

Does anyone know what if any requirements for speaking Arabic there were for an official or military officer posted to Damascus etc during the Great War?

Or were local hires employed as translators? I'm wondering what if any impact that might have had on the Arab Revolt.

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Re: Arabic Requirement for Officials/Military Command

#2

Post by stevebecker » 22 Oct 2017, 02:28

Mate,

I take it you are refering to the Ottomans here and not the Allies?

These areas were all under Ottoman rule, that meant they spoke Ottoman for all admin within the Areas, while Arabic was spoken, the official speak was ottoman, Arabic which most Ottomans could speak if they lived in that area, and as there religion was also written.

But Tosun should know more here.

Allied Units carried Interpreters with there units, but most where at Brigade level and none at the lower levels (Regt and Sqn level), since they didn't think they needed to know it.

The Jews they encountered most already knew English, while some Ottoman officers also knew French, which some of our officers also did.

But on the whole we didn't account for the problems with the native speak, even those sent to help TEL didn't know Arabic, but picked up the speak on the job.

How things changed from then to now, as all units, small and large had many interpreters in Afganastan and Iraq. While some classes were given for soldiers to speak the basic native speak.

S.B


Philip Loftus
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Re: Arabic Requirement for Officials/Military Command

#3

Post by Philip Loftus » 22 Oct 2017, 03:17

Thank you Steve, yes I was wondering about Turkish units. But it's interesting to learn about the cavalier (why am I not surprised) attitude of the Allies towards the issue.
Apparently (I've just learnt) up until 1908 Ottoman courts operated in Arabic. So lawyers and judges would have spoken Arabic and presumably there would have been translation bureaus nearby to handle non Arabic speakers needs. Turkish was substituted.
Then according to another source that popped up on google 1/3rd of the 300,000 Turkish soldiers at Gallipoli were Arabic speakers. So you have to think that the Turkish Army had no problems like the ones the Brits may have experienced.
I don't really know much about the Ottoman Empire but the small amount of reading I've done makes it seem somehow like a huge Aleppo or Alex, cosmopolitan and many people speaking 3 or 4 languages or more and no big deal. Fair comment? Not just an educated elite bi or tri lingual but a matter of course?

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Re: Arabic Requirement for Officials/Military Command

#4

Post by stevebecker » 24 Oct 2017, 01:49

Mate,

I think your right and that the Ottoman Army had no problems with either.

As to 300,000 Turkish soldiers at Gallipoli were Arabic speakers, we can assume that this means the reading of the Koran which was written in Arabic, but most common soldiers could not read or write in ottoman let alone Arabic?

While a small number of Arab Regts were at Gallipoli (72nd and 77th Regts off hand) one would think most other soldiers from areas outside Palestine/Syria would have little Arabic other then what they heard in readings by the Iman from the Koran?

But I am open to conjecture hear.

Cheers

S.B

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Re: Arabic Requirement for Officials/Military Command

#5

Post by Tosun Saral » 24 Oct 2017, 11:33

There were military schools and war schools at Damascus, Haleppo and Bagdad where young arabs could study military tactics. After graduating from those schools they were taken to Istanbul to Harbiye (faculy of War) and staff college. The arabic units of ottoman army was commanded by those officers arabic origine. There were commanding Turks also . So that the arap soldier of the army could easly understand the given orders through their officers forwarded in arabic language. eg. Staff Col Yasin Hilmi Bey was one of them. Kurds studied at Bagdad.

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Re: Arabic Requirement for Officials/Military Command

#6

Post by Tosun Saral » 24 Oct 2017, 11:43

on google 1/3rd of the 300,000 Turkish soldiers at Gallipoli were Arabic speakers.
This is fabrication. only 72 and 77 Regiments were syrian arabic as Steve told above. They were not good fighters for that reason Mustafa Kemal Bey took the back from the front. There wereno Kurds at Gallipoli.Only Turks of Anatolia and Izmir took part at Gallipoli.

On the other hand the XVth AC send to East Europa to Galizia front were Syrian Arabs. Ahmet Cemal Pasha commander of 4th Army requested Enver to send all arabs to East Europa because he feld an uprising among Syrian arabs.

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Re: Arabic Requirement for Officials/Military Command

#7

Post by Tosun Saral » 24 Oct 2017, 11:48

A negroarap NCO of XVth AC at East Europa front
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negro Arap NCO.jpg

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Re: Arabic Requirement for Officials/Military Command

#8

Post by Tosun Saral » 24 Oct 2017, 11:53

Arap officer, NCo and men of XVth AC at Galicia
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arap.jpg

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Re: Arabic Requirement for Officials/Military Command

#9

Post by Tosun Saral » 24 Oct 2017, 11:57

Arap officer and men of XVth AC
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arab unit.jpg

Philip Loftus
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Re: Arabic Requirement for Officials/Military Command

#10

Post by Philip Loftus » 25 Oct 2017, 02:00

Hello Tosun, thanks for that informative reply and pics. Would it be fair to say that only Turkish speaking units went to fight in the Negev and in Damascus etc ie: Istanbul didn't trust Arabic-speaking units to be deployed against fellow Arabic-speakers? Would you know if Turkish officers routinely spoke Arabic or the segregation of units meant they probably did not? Or simply luck of the draw- someone in any given unit was going to speak some Arabic because of the polyglot nature of the empire?

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Re: Arabic Requirement for Officials/Military Command

#11

Post by Tosun Saral » 25 Oct 2017, 12:03

in 1916-and 17 arabic soldiers fought well. Just before the 3rd Battele of Gaza 27th Div with 4000 men was defending Birü’s-Sebi. Most of the men were araps. Their commander was Staff Col. İsmet Bey (2'nd President of Turkish Republic İnönü) The weak 27th could not holt the front againts British and deserted of taken POW. Even İsmet Bey saved his life at the last moment.

Turkish officers didnot spoke arabic. Only the ones who served in arap lands for a long time spoke arabic or understand arabic. On the other hand the holy Koran is written in arabic so that still today many turks understand many koranic arabic words. As I said above there were enoughy arab officers in the army.

There is no relationship or kinship beteween Turls and arabs. two different volks and languages. It is like the difference bettween japanish and spanish.

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Waleed Y. Majeed
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Re: Arabic Requirement for Officials/Military Command

#12

Post by Waleed Y. Majeed » 25 Oct 2017, 15:50

Quite true Tosun, Arabic and Turkish are two different languages and people.
But there are quite more similarities between these than the Spanish/Japanese... :D

Several words are common, religion too and a few more things.
When it comes to the Turks learning (or maybe bother learning) for example arabic
you also have to consider the differences between the regional people/languages too.
Arabic, Assyrian and Kurdish... in what is now Iraq/Jordan/Syria and Turkey.
Even Arabic changes from country to country and not easily understood by all,
and yes the Quran is written in arabic, but even this is in a dialect of classical arabic.
A bit like making us all read Shakespeare english... and use it!

So I don't think it was considered worth it for the turkish army or officers to learn
arabic beyond personal/private use. I would say it was much easier to get the many
"differences" to learn turkish commands and pass these on in there own dialect, languages etc.
"And why should a ruler learn the language of the ruled"?

For arabs fighting "fellow" arabs, I think we have to understand it's not a language "thing",
more a regional, tribal and even religious "thing" which could easily be exploited.

w

Philip Loftus
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Re: Arabic Requirement for Officials/Military Command

#13

Post by Philip Loftus » 26 Oct 2017, 04:26

どうもありがとうございます
Muchas gracias amigos.
Wa shukran gezelen.
Teşekkür ederim.

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