Ottoman Order of Battle Third Battle of Gaza and Megiddo

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
bigglesgoestowar
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Ottoman Order of Battle Third Battle of Gaza and Megiddo

Post by bigglesgoestowar » 01 May 2018 22:13

Hi all,
Was wondering if anyone had any good sources for Ottoman Order of Battles during the Third Battle of Gaza, especially, but also something vaguely reliable on Megiddo - although I am aware that it's difficult as the army was in such a state of disorganisation by September 1918.

If anyone has any knowledge of how Ottoman Divisional Strength differs to British Strength and organisation or, better yet, knows of decent (english language) sources I can consult it would be most appreciated

stevebecker
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Re: Ottoman Order of Battle Third Battle of Gaza and Megiddo

Post by stevebecker » 02 May 2018 02:48

Mate,

I wrote some thing on this else where but but allied sourses on the Ottoman Army at that time of the war we can gain an insight?

"By Sept 1918 the Ottoman Army was holding on with few Troops and animals, added to the defences were the appearance of large numbers of Heavy Artillery, not seen in Palestine in such numbers during the war, hoping that increased firepower would over look the decreased number of men.

Yildirim (Lighting) Army Group - Liman von Sanders to Mustafa Kemal in Oct 1918

4th Army - Cemal Pasa (Mersinli)

shown Erickson Sept 1918 2nd Corps (62nd Div) Jordan Group (24th Div 3rd Cav Div) 8th Corps (48th Div Prov Div) + 12th Regt (47th Div) (900 men 14 Mgs) Circassian Cav (400 men)

7th Army - Mustafa Kemal to Oct 1918

shown Sept 1918 Allied reports 20th Corps (26th Div and 53rd Div) 3rd Corps (1st Div and 11th Div) + 4th Cav Regt (320 men 5 Mgs)
shown Oct 1918 Allied reports 264th Heavy How Bty (2x105mm guns) and 209th Heavy How Bty arrived from 17th Corps Oct 1918

8th Army - Cevat Pasha (Cobanli)

shown Sept 1918 22nd Corps (7th Div and 20th Div) German Asia Corps (19th Div 16th Div)
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports 72nd Heavy How Bn (? How) + 80th Heavy How Bn (? How) + 133rd AA Bty (2x 75mm AA guns) 177th AA Bty (2x 77mm AA guns)

4th Army Corps

2nd Corps - not known last commander Col Kazim Bey (Karabekir)

shown Sept 1918 Turkish reports (Amman 62nd Div & Prov Div) & (parts 46th Div and 25th Div) + Amman (62nd Div) & Maan Det (1Bn/12th Regt (450 men 4 Mgs) 1Co/1/130th Regt (75 men) 4/146th Regt (250 men) 3/178th Regt (275 men 10 Mgs) Maan Jandama + 123rd MG Co 137th MG Co (400 men 10 Mgs) Jerdun area 2Bn/73rd Regt (200 men 4 Mgs) 2Bn/75th Regt (300 men 4 Mgs) 2Bn/146th Regt (200 men) 2Bn/161st Regt (300 men 5 Mgs) Kalaat & Amman area 3Bn/73rd Regt (300 men 4 Mgs) 1Bn&3Bn/75th Regt (600 men 14 Mgs) Mule MI (275 4 Mgs) 2Bn&3Bn/150th Regt (200 men 12 Mgs) 1Bn/152nd Regt (100 men 4 Mgs) 25th&46th Div Cav (200 cav) Arab Milita (500 men) Hauran area 1Bn/151st Regt (100 men 4 Mgs) Arab Cav (300 cav)
shown July 1918 Allied reports Maan Det 2Bn/48th FAR (4x 75mm guns) 5Bn/58th FAR (4x 75mm guns)

8th Corps - Col Yasin Hilmi Bey WIA by arab forces 9-18 to Col Selahattin Bey (Kiper)

shown Sept 1918 Allied reports (Comp Div 24th Div 48th Div and 3rd Cav Div + Inderpt Cav Bde) 8th Corps Attack/storm Bn (120 men)
shown July 1918 Allied reports Von Marno's (KUK) 1/4bty & 2/6Bty Mountain Btys (8x 100mm) 4Bty 5Bty & 8Bty/44th FAR (8x 75mm Mountain guns & 4x 105mm How)

7th Army Corps

3rd Corps - not confirmed possibly Col Ismet Bey (Inönü) or Ali Riza Pasha (Sedes)

shown Aug 1918 Allied reports (1st Div (1600 men 100 cav 54 MGs) 11th Div (2000 men 75 MGs) + 3Bn/146th Regt 702Bn 703Bn German (950 men 83 MGs 75 cav) 4th Cav Regt (300 cav 5 MGs) -
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports (1st and 11th Divs)
shown July 1918 Allied reports 256th Heavy How Bty (1x 105mm how) 8th Heavy How Bty (3x 150mm How) 5Bty/27th FAR (4x 75mm Mountain guns) shown 9Bty (possibly 20Bty) KUK (1x 240mm Motor mortar)

20th Corps - Ali Fuat Pasa (Cebesoy)

shown Aug 1918 Allied reports (3100 men 150 cav 102 Mgs) (26th Div 53rd Div) -
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports (26th Div and 53rd Div)
shown July 1918 Allied reports 3Bn/12th FAR (6x 75mm mountain guns) 8Bn/24th FAR (3x 77mm guns) 702nd Heavy How Bn (2x 77mm guns + 2x 105mm how) 30th Heavy How Bty (2x 150mm how) 140th Heavy How Bty (1x 150mm how) 10th Heavy How Bty (1x 150mm How)

8th Army Corps

22nd Corps - Col Refet Bey (Bele)

shown Aug 1918 Allied reports (4750 men 250 cav 201 Mgs) (19th Div 20th Div + 701Bn German) & (7th Div 20th Div) (3900 men 250 cav 156 Mgs) -
shown Turkish Sept 1918 reports (7th Div and 20th Div part 46th Div?)
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports 1Bn/6th FAR (8x field guns) 2Bn/6th FAR (8x field guns) 8Bn/16th FAR (8x Field guns) 73rd Heavy How Bn (13Bty 14Bty (8x 150mm How) 268th Heavy How Bty (2x 105mm How) 72nd Heavy How Bn (11Bty 12Bty (6x 150mm How) 80th Heavy How Bn (3Bty 15Bty (5x 150mm How) 20Bty KUK (2x10.4cm skoda M15 guns) 229th Heavy How Bty July (4x 120mm How) Sept (2x 105mm how) 47th Heavy How Bty (2x ?)

German Asia Corps - Col von Frankenberg und Proschlitz

shown Aug 1918 Allied reports (5600 men 300 cav 182 MGs) (7th Div 16th Div part 46th Div) & 16th Div 19th Div (5000 men 250 cav 172 MGs) -
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports (4280 men 199 Mgs 250 cav) (Pasha II Group 16th Div and 19th Div)
shown Corps Artillery 701st FAR (G) 1Bn (2x 77mm guns) 2Bn (4x 105mm how) 3Bn (4x 105mm how) Pasha II Group 15th AA Bty (4x 77mm AA guns Mobile MT) Turkish 2Bn/48th FAR (8x 75mm Guns) 16th Heavy How Bty (4x 150mm how) 140th Heavy How Bty (1x 150mm how) + German 120th AA Sect (att 146th German Infantry Regt) (2x 77mm AA guns)

The 12th Corps is also reported in Palestine, but not in the front lines but its shown as

12th Corps - Col Fahrettin Bey (Altay)

shown June 1918 Turkish reports (3rd Div 7th Div 20th Div) -
shown Sept 1918 Turkish reports (23rd Div) -
shown 1918 Allied reports 1st Independant Cav Bde - 1st Cav Regt + MG Co (4xSqns) 13th Cav Regt + MG Co (4xSqns) + 1Bn/1st FAR (4x 75mm guns) 8Bn/4th FAR (2x 75mm Mountain guns)

Now by Divisions;

1st Div (3rd Corps) - the German LtCol Hans Guhr also General Guhr reports that LtCol Hulusi Bey replaced him 21-10-18 (also shown LtCol Veysel Bey (Özgür) 9-18 Pow Oct 1918

shown July 1918 Allied reports (2100 men 100 cav 54 Mgs) (1600 men 100 cav 54 Mgs) -
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports (54 Mgs) 70th Regt (640 men) 71st Regt (310 men) 124th Regts (360 men) attack/storm Co (70 men) Div Cav (100 men) -
shown Oct 1918 Allied reports 70th Regt (shown 109th Regt and 110th Regt but at Baku with 37th Cauc Div) -
shown July 1918 Allied reports 1Bn/1st FAR (8x 75mm guns) 2Bn/8th FAR (6x 75mm guns)
1st Div reported captured outside Damascus Oct 1918

11th Div (3rd Corps) - LtCol Hasan Mümtaz Bey

shown Aug 1918 Allied reports 33rd Regt lost 440 men in British raid on El Burj bridge 12/13 Aug 1918 (1600 men 77 Mgs) -
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports (77 MG's) 33rd Regt (550 men) 126th Regt (530 men) 127th Regt (420 men) attack/storm Co (70 men) shown July 1918 Allied reports 1Bn/11th FAR (8x 77mm guns) 1Bn/27th FAR (6x 77m guns) 1Bty/50th FAR (4x 77mm guns)
reported 11th Div captured outside Damascus Oct 1918

3rd Div - disbanded early 1918

7th Div (22nd Corps) - LtCol Nasuhi Bey reported PoW Sept 1918

shown July 1918 Allied reports (2100 men 150 cav 66 MG's) -
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports (66 MG's) 19th Regt (700 men) 20th Regt (440 men) 21st Regt (580 men) attack/storm Co (70 men) Div Cav (150 cav) + 2Bn/146th Regt (German) (450 men 29 MG's) -
shown July 1918 Allied reports 2Bn/1st FAR (8x 75mm guns) 2Bn/2th FAR (8x 75mm guns) 257th Heavy How Bty (2x 105mm how) 37th Heavy How Bty (3x 150mm How) 2nd Heavy How Bty (3x 150mm How) Bty KUK (4x 100m how) -
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports 1Bn/9th FAR (8xguns) 2Bn/25th FAR (6xguns)
Div commander and both commanders 19th and 20th Regts captured Sept 1918

20th Div (22nd Corps) - LtCol Veysel Bey (Özgür) Pow Oct 1918

shown Aug 1918 Allied reports 63rd Regt still with 48th Div (shown 5-18) -
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports (94 Mgs) 2Bn/17th Regt (140 men) 61st Regt (510 men) 62nd Regt (690 men) attack/storm Co (70 men) Div Cav (100 men)
shown July 1918 Allied reports 1Bn/5th FAR (8x 75mm guns) 1Bn/6th FAR (8x 75mm guns) and or 1Bn/20th FAR (7xguns) 2Bn/20th FAR (8x 105mm? guns)
Div commander and both Regt commanders 61st and 62nd Regts captured Sept 1918 - reported captured outside Damascus Oct 1918

16th Div (German Asia Corps) - Col Rüstü or Rushdi (Sakarya) PoW 24-9-18

June 1918- 31st Regt (3rd Div) + 138th Regt (43rd Div) -
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports (86 Mgs) 47th Regt (860 men 26 Mgs) 48th Regt + 248th MG Co (760 men 31 Mgs) 125th Regt (580 men 32 Mgs) attack/storm Co (70 men) Div Cav (150 men) + 1Bn/146th Regt (German) (450 men 29 MG's) -
shown July 1918 Allied reports 2Bn/53rd FAR (7x 75mm guns) 4Bn/27th FAR (3x 75mm Mountain guns) 10Bty/14th FAR (3x 75mm Mountain guns) + 74th Heavy How Bn (236Bty 257Bty (2x 105mm How 4x 150mm how)
16th Div reported captured outside Damascus Oct 1918

19th Div (German Asia Corps) - Col Sami Sabit Bey (Karaman) PoW 9-18

shown July 1918 Allied reports (2500 men 100 cav 84 Mgs) -
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports (84 Mgs) 57th Regt (610 men) 72nd Regt (410 men) 77th Regt (470 men) attack/storm Co (70 men) Div Cav (100 men) -
shown July 1918 Allied reports 13th FAR (1Bn/9th FAR 4x 75mm guns) 2Bn/25th FAR (7x 75mm guns) or 1Bn/19th FAR (8x 75mm guns) 1Bn/25th FAR (8x 75mm guns) + 263Bty 63rd Heavy How Bn (4x 105mm How) 72nd Heavy How Bn (5Bty 12Bty 13Bty (5x 105mm How 4x 150mm how)
19th Div reported captured outside Damascus Oct 1918

23rd Div (12th Corps) - Col Bahaettin Bey

shown Feb 1918 Allied reports 68th Regt 69th Regt and 130th Regt + 544Bn Coastal defences
shown Allied reports Feb 1918- 1Bn/23rd FAR (6x 75mm guns) 3Bn/43rd FAR (8x 75mm guns) 4Bn/39th FAR (8x 75mm guns)
no other Orbat is shown for this Division

24th Div (8th Corps) - LtCol Lütfü Bey or LtCol Serid Sirri or Sirrey Pow 1918 to the German Col Böhme Oct 1918

shown Aug 1918 Allied reports 2nd Regt 58th Regt 143rd Regt + 1st Attack/storm Bn (2100 men 72 Mgs 75 cav) + 11th Div Cav Sqn (100 cav) -
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports 145th Regt (46th Div) absorbed into 2nd Regt 1Bn/74th Regt (25th Div) absorbed into 3Bn/58th Regt & shown Sept 1918 Allied reports 70 MG's 2nd Regt (740 men) 58th Regt (790 men) and 143rd Regt (530 men) + attack Co (70 men) Div Cav (175 men) -
shown July 1918 Allied reports 2Bn/43rd FAR (7x 75mm guns) 1Bn/39th FAR (7x 75mm guns)
24th Div reported captured outside Damascus Oct 1918

48th Div (8th Corps) - LtCol Asim Bey (Gündüz) 1-18 PoW 2-10-18 to LtCol Nuri Bey Oct 1918

shown Aug 1918 Allied reports 191st Regt (600 men 18 Mgs) 23rd Regt (900 men 20 MGs) 63rd Regt (900 men 18 Mgs) 17th Regt (500 men 12 MGs) T/att 7th Cav Regt (350 cav 7 Mgs) & 191st Regt (600 men 18 Mgs) 63rd Regt (900 men 18 Mgs) 23rd Regt (600 men 20 Mgs) -
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports 23rd Regt (550 men 20 Mgs) 191st Regt (18 Mgs) + 63rd Regt (20th Div) (18 Mg's) (1350 men 36 Mgs) 24th MG Co (G) (4 Mgs)
shown July 1918 Allied reports shown 20Bty possibly 1/4Bty & 2Bty/6th FAR (KUK) (8x 100m How) 7Bty/27th FAR (4x 75mm Mountain guns) 4bty/7th FAR (2x 75mm guns) 7Bty/24th FAR (4x 75mm Mountain guns) 7Bty/8th FAR (4x 75mm Mountain guns) 8Bty/44th FAR (2x 75mm Mountain guns)

1st Composite (Lütfü) Müretteb or Mürattep) Div (8th Corps) - German LtCol Hofter (G) to LtCol Schierstaedt (G) Oct 1918 PoW 10-18

shown Aug 1918 Allied reports 66th Regt (400 men 10 Mgs) 1Bn/146th Regt (German) (800 men 39 Mgs) 1Bn/146th Regt (350 men 4 Mgs) 2Bn&3Bn/152nd Regt (450 men 12 Mgs) Mule Mtd Bn (225 men 6 Mgs) Camel Co (50 men) + 148th Regt (600 men 18 MGs) - shown Sept 1918 Allied reports 66th Regt (580 men 12 mgs) 1Bn/146th Regt (230 men 4 mgs) 2Bn&3Bn/152nd Regt (370 men 12 Mgs) 1Bn Mule Mtd (260 men 6 Mgs) 1Bn/146th German Regt (800 men) attack/Storm Co (140 men) Camel Co (50 men)
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports 1Bty/23rd FAR (4x 75mm gun) 5Bty/26th FAR (4x 75mm guns) + 1x schneider mountain gun)

3rd Cav Div (8th Corps) - LtCol Mahmut Nedim Bey (Handek) T/Comdr to Maj Vecihi Bey (21 Sep 1918) to LtCol Mahmut Nedim Bey (Handek) (30 Sep 1918) PoW 1918

shown Aug 1918 Allied reports 6th Cav Regt 8th Cav Regts (600 cav 16xMG's) Mule Mtn Regt & Camel Co (375 men) -
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports 6th Cav Regt (300 men 8 Mgs) 8th Cav Regt (380 men 8 Mgs) + camel Co (100 men) -
shown July 1918 Allied reports 2x Btys (8x 75mm Guns)
shown Oct 1918 Allied reports PoW commanders 6th Cav and 8th Cav Regts and Div Commander Oct 1918

2nd Caucasus Cav Bde - Maj Irfan 1917-18 shown Sept 1918 Allied reports - Col Deli Mehmed

shown Aug 1918 Allied reports 9th Cav Regt 11th Cav Regt (650 cav 14 MGs) T/att 7th Cav Regt with 48th Div - shown Sept 1918 Allied reports 7th Cav Regt (330 cav) 9th Cav Regt (190 cav) 11th Cav Regt (380 cav 21 Mgs) 2/29th Cav Regt (100 cav)
shown July 1918 Allied reports 7Bty/44th FAR (4x 75mm Mountain guns)

25th Div (2nd Corps) - Col Sükrü Ali Bey shown Oct 1918 Allied reports LtCol Chukri (no record of him in Turkish accounts) 9-18 possibly Sükrü

shown June 1918 Allied reports 74th Regt 75th Regt (1800 men 100 cav 48 MG's) less 73rd Regt (900 men 18 MGs) att 8th Army Troops) reported in document 1Bn&2Bn/74th Regt (1450 men 12 MGs)
shown in Turkish reports return Turkey 1-18 to Thrace 1918 dissolved mid 1918

62nd Div (2nd Corps) - Col Hüseyin Nurettin (Özsu)

formed Amman on 17 July 1918 from parts 25th Div & 48th Div -

shown July 1918 Allied reports 150th Regt (14 Mgs) 73rd Regt (21 Mgs) 75th Regt (27 Mgs) 162nd Regt + Mule Mounted Regt -
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports (44 Mgs) 2Bn&3Bn/73rd Regt 75th Regt 2Bn&3Bn/150th Regt 2Bn/146th Regt 2Bn/161st Regt 1Bn/152nd Regt 1Bn/151st Regt + Mule Mounted Regt (2500 men) + Arab forces (500 men) 25th Div Cav Sqn 46th Div Cav Sqn (200 men) + arab Cav (300 men)
shown July 1918 Allied reports (8x 87mm old krupp guns 2x 75mm mountian guns) 2Bn/50th FAR (5x 75mm mountian guns) Bty KUK (4x 10.4mm Mountian How)

46th Div (parts with 2nd Corps and German Asia Corps) - the German LtCol Tiller (G) shown Sept 1918 Allied reports Col Mahmut (Belig) Bey

shown July 1918 Allied reports 144th Regt (1000 men 24 MGs) + 178th MG Co (33xMG's) 17th Comp Regt (3Bn/17th Regt 2Bn/74 Regt 4Bn/73rd Regt 3Bn/75th Regt 73rd MG Co + 75th MG Co (24xMG's) (now 24 MG's per Regt) 145th Regt (900 men 28 MGs) det to 7th Army -
shown Sept 1918 Allied reports (36 MG's) 1Bn & 3Bn/17th Regt (300 men) and 144th Regt (310 men) + 1Bn/73rd Regt (300 men 6 MG's) with 8th Army and 2Bn & 4Bn/146th Regt + Div Cav with 2nd Corps 4th Army -
shown July 1918 Allied reports No guns reported
reported 46th Div captured outside Damascus Oct 1918

shown in documents as Prov Div this was the;

1st Provisional (Composite) Force - (Div commander 48th Div) LtCol Hamid or Hamit Fakhri Bey KIA 26-1-18 by arab forces under TE Lawrence at Tafileh

Security force for railway lines in Arabia possibly from Amman area? Composite (Müretteb or Mürattep) Regt (3Bn/151st 1Bn/152nd 1Bn/150th)

see detachments outside Amman by the 62nd Div and others of the 2nd Corps

This was a Temp force formed for operations on the Hejaz rail line before returning to its formations.

Much of this force was captured by the 2nd LH Bde in Sept/Oct 1918 outside Amman, which led the famous defence of the Turks by Australian LH against Lawrence's arabs."

Hope this helps

S.B

stevebecker
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Re: Ottoman Order of Battle Third Battle of Gaza and Megiddo

Post by stevebecker » 02 May 2018 03:12

Mate,

As to your question "If anyone has any knowledge of how Ottoman Divisional Strength differs to British Strength and organisation"

Ottoman units (Bns and Regts) were a shadow of their former selves

Each Ottoman Bn had

3x Line companies + 1x Bn MG Company (converted line company) (strength veries by the ORbat shown above)

Each Regt still had three Bns and a MG Company (strength veries by the ORbat shown above)

Each Division still ahd three Regts each had a MG Company and a Artillery Regt (strength veries by the ORbat shown above)

The Divisional Support units very from formation but little was around. To give some idea the last recorded units for the 1st Div were;'

(1914-15) 1st Sqn 5th Cav Regt - 1st Field Hosp - 1st Eng Co - 1st Sig sect - 1st pontoon Sect

shown July 1918 Allied reports 2nd Sqn 5th Cav Regt 5Co/10th Pnr Bn 3Co/2nd Telegraph Bn 2nd Bearer Co 7th Field Hosp 6th Baky

Again unit very as some had a number of sub units while others had very few?

Hope that helps

S.B

bigglesgoestowar
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Re: Ottoman Order of Battle Third Battle of Gaza and Megiddo

Post by bigglesgoestowar » 02 May 2018 11:58

Thankyou this is really helpful - correct me if I'm wrong but from the information above would it be fair to say that:
Ottoman regiments are of slightly less strength than a British Brigade?
Ottoman Divisions are slightly less strength than a British Division
Ottoman Corps are more a grouping of one or two divisions
Ottoman Armies are roughly equivalent to a British Corps?
There are differences in the allocation of Turkish heavy artillery which, as you point out, is much heavier in Turkish units during Megiddo.

Am I on the right track here?

There's obviously a lot of material to sift through to get an accurate Ottoman Order of Battle for these engagements.

I'm still in the early stages of research so haven't actually managed to get my hands on the Erickson book which I would imagine is the main source of this but its good to have these early indicators.

Finally, there's an Ottoman Order of Battle but Sanders has pointed out the innacuracy of some Allied sources so I'm slightly sceptical to take this at face value - do you know of any alternative published sources to the pretty light on detail Cyril Falls Official History for a Third Gaza Order of Battle?

stevebecker
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Joined: 01 Jul 2006 03:04
Location: Australia

Re: Ottoman Order of Battle Third Battle of Gaza and Megiddo

Post by stevebecker » 02 May 2018 22:33

Mate,

"Ottoman regiments are of slightly less strength than a British Brigade?"

Yes even worst, an Ottoman Regt was the strength of a British/Allied Bn

So a Ottoman Div was the size of a British Bde

Yes an ottoman Corps had at lest two Div's and is some cases three.

Your right these are the known British Intell reports on the Ottoman Army, But each number is the known or believed strength of that unit, but that strength is the fighting strength not the total strength, as support units like Artillery and supply units numbers are hardly ever given.

Lets take a look at the 1st Inf Div

shown Sept 1918 Allied reports (54 Mgs) 70th Regt (640 men) 71st Regt (310 men) 124th Regts (360 men) attack/storm Co (70 men) Div Cav (100 men) -

So there were 54 MG's in that Div, so divide 54 into three Regts, so were there some 18 MGs per Regt possibly?

This does not account for the Artillery Regt, possibly two Artillery Bn's around 300 men per Arty Bn? and the Supply units another 400 + men, these numbers don't appear on the British Intell reports.

I like to add an extra 1000 men to the Divisional strength so these out leyers can be accounted for, so a Div strength of say 3000 + men should be around 4000 + men to account for the support troops?

Yes I agree these are the best known records of the Ottoman Army, other then where the Ottomans them selves had given numbers, But as you state these are not always correct, but are close to the real numbers we faced in 1918.

I am yet to see an Ottoman record of these Armies, other then some whole numbers given in some books on the Ottoman Army. I would also love to see the Ottoman records of their Armies during this time, but so far no luck?

So we are stuck with these numbers which are sad to say are a sorry state of the Ottoman Army in Sept 1918, how they held a front with a Regt of say 400 + men, when a Regt should be 3000 men not 400 how did they hold that front with a Bn size unit? No wonder we broke through the Ottoman Front in Sept and over run the whole line.

Cheers

S.B

stevebecker
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Re: Ottoman Order of Battle Third Battle of Gaza and Megiddo

Post by stevebecker » 04 May 2018 23:03

Mate,

Sorry I notice you also wanted the Ottoman Army for the 3rd Gaza period, do you still want that list as its the same as the above list in that its from the Allied Intell reports?

Cheers

S.B

bigglesgoestowar
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Re: Ottoman Order of Battle Third Battle of Gaza and Megiddo

Post by bigglesgoestowar » 05 May 2018 18:47

This is really helpful - thanks. Never quite understood how the Ottomans were organized but at least I have the answer now (they weren't!)

and yeah absolutely agree - Megiddo, at least, seems almost to be a foregone conclusion especially when you take into account the (allegedly) rock bottom morale in the Ottoman Army by that point

The Third Gaza Order Of Battle would be fantastic mate - and a reference if you've got it - although I'll be going to the National Archives in Kew within the next two months so sure I could dig it out there if you haven't got one

stevebecker
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Re: Ottoman Order of Battle Third Battle of Gaza and Megiddo

Post by stevebecker » 06 May 2018 01:29

Mate,

No problem, these Intell reports are shown in the documents at Corps (Desert Mounted and possibly British infantry Corps) where they go through the Ottoman units facing them.

I took these from a number of documents in the AIF records like the Desert Mounted Corps and Anzac Mounted Div war diaries. The difference are the many sourse used to make these, like some units are sown in different formations at times, did they move around well yes more then often to confuse us all. Ottoman Artillery moved around a lot and tieing them down has been almost imposible.

Again these are fighting strength and not total strengths

The first major change was the formation of the Yildirim or (Lighting or Thunderbolt) Army Group under the German Erich von Falkenhayn, in May 1917.

This was formed for the fighting in Mesopotamia with the 6th Army (13th Corps and 18th Corps) and in Palestine with the 7th Army (3rd Corps and 15th Corps), but the situation changed and the Palestine front took up most of its attention.

The Gaza defences was held by the new 8th Army under the German von Kressenstein which arrived and replaced the 4th Army (which went back to commanding the garrison Corps in Syria and Palestine) 2nd Oct 1917.

The 7th Army under Gen Mustafa Kemal had its 3rd Corps holding Beersheba but the 15th Corps was still to arrive.

shown Oct 1917 Turkish reports 8th Army - Gaza Group 22nd Corps (3rd Div 7th Div 53rd Div) Sheria Group 20th Corps (26th Div 54th Div)

shown 7th Army - Bir saba Group 3rd Corps (27th Div 3rd Cav Div) + 16th Div and in reserve 24th Div

Bir saba Group 3rd Corps

27th Div
shown Oct 1917 Allied reports 27th Div (3091 men) 81st Regt (900 men 18 Mgs) 48th Regt (16th Div) (900 men 24 Mgs) 67th Regt (43rd Div) (1400 men 12 Mgs) att 2nd Regt (24th Div) (740 men 12 Mgs)
shown Oct 1917 - 2Bn/43rd FAR (8xguns) 1Bn/13th FAR (8xguns) 2Bn/39th FAR (8xguns )

3rd Cav Div
shown Oct 1917 Allied reports 3rd Cav Div 6th Cav Regt (500 men 8 MG's) 8th Cav Regt (500 men 8 MG's) + Bty 4 guns (7th Cav Regt T/det to Arabia) att 125th Regt (16th Div) 650 men? 12 MGs including 8x Lewis guns) -
shown Oct 1917 3rd Cav Div had 16 MG's (6th Cav Regt 8 MGs 8th Cav Regt 8 MGs) -
shown Turkish Oct 1917 reports 3rd Cav Div (1800 men 16 Mgs 4 guns)

16th Div
shown Oct 1917 Allied reports 16th Div (5043 men) 72 Mgs (each Regt 24 Mgs) 47th Regt 48th Regt 125th Regt -
shown Oct 1917 + 248th MG Co and 48th Regt att 27th Div & 125th Regt att 3rd Cav Div)
shown Oct 1917- 2Bn/53rd FAR (8x 75mm QF guns) 4Bn/27th FAR (8x 87mm Mountain guns) 10Bty/14th FAR (4x 87mm mountain guns)

24th Div
shown Oct 1917 24th Div (3596 men) 58th Regt 143rd Regt with 2nd Regt (740 men or 460 men) T/att 27th Div

Gaza Group 22nd Corps 8th Army

3rd Div
shown Sept 1917 Allied reports 3rd Div (4159 men 53 Mgs 26 guns) -
shown Oct 1917 Allied reports 3rd Div (4277 men 60 Mgs) (31st Regt (18 Mgs) 138th Regt (18 Mgs) 32nd Regt (24 Mgs)
shown Sept 1917 Allied reports (24x 75mm guns 2x75mm Mountian guns + 8x 9.5mm TMB)

7th Div
shown Sept 1917 Allied reports 7th Div (3643 men 53 MGs 25 guns) -
shown Oct 1917 Allied reports 7th Div (3600 men 54 MG's) 20th Regt (18 MGs) 21st Regt (12 MGs) 134th Regt (24 MGs)
shown Sept 1917 Allied reports (17x 75mm guns & 8x 75mm Mantelli mountain guns + 8x 9.5mm TMB)

53rd Div
shown Sept 1917 Allied reports 53rd Div 79th Regt (1000 men 18 Mgs) 161st Regt (1300 men 18 Mgs) + 163rd Regt (1169 men 18 Mgs) -
shown Oct 1917 Allied reports 53rd Div (4018 men 54 Mgs) (79th Regt (18 Mgs) 161st Regt (18 Mgs) 163rd Regt (18 Mgs)

Sheria Group 20th Corps

26th Div
shown Oct 1917 Allied reports 26th Div (4115 men) 54xMG's) 59th Regt (18 Mgs) 76th Regt (18 Mgs) 78th Regt (18 Mgs)

54th Div
shown Oct 1917 54th Div (3541 men 54 Mgs) 19th Regt (18 Mgs) 164th Regt (18 Mgs) 165th Regt (18 Mgs)

These are the known Ottoman forces at 3rd Gaza, the fighting in Nov and the retreat to the counter attacks in Dec to follow.

Fighting on the Gaza line continued once Beersheba fell the first to arrive was the vetern 19th Div.

19th Div
shown Oct 1917 Allied reports 19th Div (6500 men 18 Mg's + Div MG Co 230 men Div Cav Sqn 350 men Div transport 350 men Div Arty 1500 men (32x 75mm guns) att 4x100mm 4x150mm 2x240mm (KUK) + 136th Regt (43rd Div) (1650 men)
shown Dec 1917 Allied reports 19th Div 72nd Regt (800 men) 77th Regt (600 men) detached 57th Regt (900 men) att 158th Regt (600 men) att 61st Regt (600 men)
shown Oct 1917 Allied reports 25th FAR (1500 men 4x100mm 4x150mm 20Bty KUK 2x240mm 32x 75mm guns) -
shown Turkish Dec 1917 report 1Bn/10th FAR 2Bn/25th FAR

12th Depot Regt
Also this unit which was the depot (training Regt at Jerusalem) 12th Infantry depot Regt
shown Oct- Nov 1917 Allied reports - 2xBn's (700 men) under Maj Meyer suport fighting around Beersheba

20th Div - arrived in Palestine for the Dec counter attacks
shown Dec 1917 Allied reports 20th Div (3000 men 100 cav) 61st Regt 62nd Regt 63rd Regt later detached 62nd Regt (1200 men)
shown Dec 1917 Allied reports - (16x 77mm guns 4x 105mm How) -
shown Turkish Dec 1917 report - 1Bn/20th FAR 2Bn/20th FAR (16 guns) shown att 4th Light field Obüs Bty/41st FAR (4x 105mm How)

The Nov withdrawal and Dec fighting reduced the formations to these numbers;

7th Army under Gen Mustafa Fevzi Pasa (Çakmak)

shown Jan - Feb 1918 Allied reports (3rd Corps (1st Div & 24th Div) & 20th Corps (26th Div 53rd Div 48th Div) + 3rd Cav Div
Jan 1918 Allied reports 45th Heavy How Bn (1Bty 7Bty 10Bty 4x 105mm how 8x 150mm how) 11th Heavy Obüs/How Bn -2x batteries each with (4x 105 mm guns) 10-17 & 12th Heavy Obüs/How Bn -2x batteries each with (4x 105 mm guns) 10-17 att 2nd Heavy Obüs/How Bty (2x 15cm Krupp K16 field guns) 3-18

3rd Corps under Col Ismet Bey (Inönü)

shown Turkish Dec 1917 reports (19th Div 24th Div 3rd Cav Div) -
shown Jan 1918 Allied reports (1st Div 24th Div 19th Div 3rd Cav Div)

20th Corps under Ali Fuat Pasa (Cebesoy)

shown Turkish Dec 1917 reports (26th Div 27th Div 53rd Div) -
shown Dec 1917 Allied reports 26th Div (1160 men) 27th Div (4400 men) 53rd Div (3500 men) -
shown Jan 1918 (26th Div and 53rd Div attch 27th Div and 48th Div)

8th Army under Cevat Pasha (Cobanli)

shown Erickson Jan 1918 22nd Corps (3rd Div 7th Div 20th Div 16th Div 54th Div) + 2nd Cauc Cav Bde
shown Jan 1918 Allied reports (16th Div 54th Div 2nd Cauc Cav Bde)

22nd Corps under Col Refet Bey (Bele)

shown Turkish Dec 1917 reports (7th Div 16th Div 20th Div 54th Div) -
shown Turkish Jan 1918 reports (3rd Div (2700 men) 7th Div (2000 men) 20th Div (3000 men) + 16th Div (1500 men) 54th Div (2700 men) 2nd Cauc Cav Bde (1500 cav) 5x Div cav Sqns (500 cav)

A closer look at these Divisions gives us this;

3rd Div
shown Dec 1917 Allied reports 3rd Div - 31st Regt (1000 men) 138th Regt (1000 men) 161st Regt (1000 men) reports 32nd Regt to 53rd Div Nov 1917 -
shown Jan 1918 Allied reports (2700 men 44 Mgs 100 cav) 31st Regt (800 men 14 Mgs) 138th Regt (900 men 14 Mgs) 161st Regt (900 men 12 Mgs) 150 cav
shown Dec 1917 - 2Bn/5th FAR and 1Bn/6th FAR or 1Bn/5th FAR and 1Bn/16th FAR
shown Turkish Dec 1917 report - 4Bty/13th FAR 5Bty/5th FAR 4Bty/25th FAR

7th Div
shown Dec 1917 Allied reports 7th Div - 20th Regt 600 men) 134th Regt (500 men) 134th Regt replaced 19th Regt 1917/18 - 3/21st Regt to Hejez
shown Jan 1918 Allied reports (2000 men 42xMGs 100 cav) 20th Regt (750 men 14xMGs) 21st Regt (14xMGs) 134th Regt (500 men 14xMGs) T/att 62nd Regt (900 men) 150 cav
shown Turkish Dec 1917 report 1Bn/14th FAR (75mm guns) 1Bn/13th FAR shown att Light field Obüs Bty/41st FAR 1Bn/54th FAR 1Bn/9th FAR 1Bn/6th FAR

16th Div
shown Dec 1917 Allied reports 16th Div - 47th Regt (750 men) 48th Regt (750 men) 125th Regt 750 men) - shown Jan 1918 Allied reports (1500 men 42 Mgs 100 cav) 47th Regt (750 men) 48th Regt (700 men) 125th Regt (750 men) 150 cav
shown Turkish Dec 1917 report - 1Bn/16th FAR (lost 1 gun) 2Bn/6th FAR (lost 6 guns) or 1Bn/16th FAR 2Bn/16th FAR 3Bn/16th FAR (less 1Bty with 3rd Div) shown att 4th Light field Obüs Bty/23rd FAR 5Bty/25th FAR 4Bty/6th FAR 2Bty/16th FAR 1Bty/47th FAR

19th Div
shown Dec 1917 Allied reports 19th Div - 72nd Regt (800 men) 77th Regt (600 men) detached 57th Regt (900 men) att 158th Regt (600 men) att 61st Regt (600 men) -
shown Jan 1918 Allied reports (3800 men 56 Mgs 100 cav) 57th Regt (800 men 12 Mgs) 72nd Regt (500 men 12 Mgs) 77th Regt (1200 men 12 Mgs) att 158th Regt (700 men 16 Mgs) & 61st Regt (500 men) 150 cav
shown Turkish Dec 1917 report 1Bn/10th FAR 2Bn/25th FAR -
shown Jan 1918 Allied reports 13th FAR (part)

20th Div
shown Jan 1918 Allied reports 20th Div (3000 men 54 Mgs) 61st Regt (18 Mgs) 62nd Regt (18xMGs) 63rd Regt (18 Mgs) - att 2xBn's 57th Regt (19th Div)
shown Dec 1917 Allied reports - (16x 77mm guns 4x 105mm How) -
shown Turkish Dec 1917 report - 1Bn/20th FAR 2Bn/20th FAR (16 guns) shown att 4th Light field Obüs Bty/41st FAR

24th Div
shown Dec 1917 Allied reports 24th Div - 2nd Regt (450 men) 58th Regt (400 men) 143rd Regt (500 men) &
shown Jan 1918 Allied reports (1500 men 24 Mgs 100 cav) (2nd Regt (400 men 8 Mgs) 58th Regt (350 men 8 Mgs) 143rd Regt (450 men 8 Mgs) 150 cav

26th Div
shown Dec 1917 Allied reports 26th Div (4400 men) and 76th Regt 600 men) 78th Regt (600 men) 1Bn/59th Rget (400 men) -
shown Jan 1918 Allied reports (possibly 2000 men 42 Mgs) 67th Regt (750 men) 81st Regt (1250 men) 150 cav also shown (59th Regt (1000 men 9 Mgs or 12 Mgs) 76th Regt (15 Mgs) 78th Regt (1000 men 9 Mgs or 15 Mgs) + Cav Sqn (100 cav)

27th Div
shown Dec 1917 Allied reports 27th Div (1160 men) 81st Regt (1400 men) 4/80th Regt 67th Regt (43rd Div) (800 men) -
shown Jan 1918 Allied reports (900 men 24 Mgs + 100 Cav) 67th Regt (12 Mgs) 81st Regt (12 Mgs) -

possibly 27th Div disbanded around Jan 1918

53rd Div
shown Dec 1917 Allied reports 53rd Div (3500 men) 161st Regt disbanded Nov - Dec 1917 after retreat from Beersheba 32nd Regt (250 men) 136th Regt (1500 men) 163rd Regt (700 men) -
shown Jan 1918 Allied reports (2000 men 54 Mgs 50 Cav) or 32nd Regt (200 men 15 Mgs) 136th Regt (700 men 15 Mgs) 163rd Regt (600 men 18 Mgs) 150 cav
shown Turkish Dec 1917 report - 2Bn/1st FAR (lost 2x guns) 2Bn/2nd FAR

54th Div
shown Dec 1917 Allied reports 19th Regt (1200 men) 164th Regt (500 men) 165th Regt (600 men) 2xBns/59th Regt (800 men)
shown Jan 1918 Allied reports (2700 men 36 Mgs 100 cav) 19th Regt (1200 men 12 Mgs) 164th Regt (500 men 12 Mgs) Bn/165th Regt (300 men 12 Mgs) att 59th Regt (800 men) 150 cav
shown Turkish Dec 1917 report - 2Bn/50th FAR (reported lost all guns) 2Bn/13th FAR (lost 1 gun) shown att 5th Light field Obüs Bty/23rd FAR 4Bty/1st FAR 2Bn/2nd FAR 4Bty/14th FAR

54th Div disbanded around March 1918

3rd Cav Div
shown Jan 1918 Allied reports 3rd Cav Div (1350 cav 24 Mgs) with 7th Cav Regt (650 cav 8xMGs) still in Hejaz

Arrived around Dec 1917 and Jan 1918

1st Div
shown Dec 1917 Allied reports 1st Div - 70th Regt (1500 men) 71st Regt (1500 men) -
shown Jan 1918 Allied reports 1st Div (2800 men 36 Mgs 100 cav) 70th Regt (850 men) 71st Regt (800 men) 124th Regt (1000 men) 150 cav

Again I hope this helps as a base for what you do, if you find any changes please let all of us known so we can see what going on.

Cheers

S.B

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Elwyn W
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Re: Ottoman Order of Battle Third Battle of Gaza and Megiddo

Post by Elwyn W » 22 Dec 2020 05:16

Slightly off topic.... Have anyone seen a picture of Hamid Fakhri Bey .... he commanded Turkish 26 Div in late 1916/1917 as part of the Southern prong under the Donau Armee which in turn came under Bulgarian AOK 3.

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Tosun Saral
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Re: Ottoman Order of Battle Third Battle of Gaza and Megiddo

Post by Tosun Saral » 23 Dec 2020 14:38

Satff LtCol Hamid Fahri Bey was KIA at Tafile Battle on Jan.26 1918 (M.Neşet, Büyük Harpte Suriye Cephesinde 48.48.Piyade Fırkası, Askeri Mecmua Nr 77, 1930) M.Neşet Bey, 48th Inf Division at Syrian Front in WW1. Military Mahazine Nr 77)

Tosun Saral
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Re: Ottoman Order of Battle Third Battle of Gaza and Megiddo

Post by Tosun Saral » 23 Dec 2020 14:52

27th Div with 4000 men was defending Birü’s-Sebi. Most of the men were araps. Their commander was Staff Col. İsmet Bey (2'nd President of Turkish Republic İnönü) The weak 27th could not holt the front againts British and araps deserted of taken POW. Even İsmet Bey saved his life at the last moment.
A force of 20 000 gun including 53t Div in reserve was defending an area 30 km long between Gazze - Telüşşeria. For each meter there were only 2 or 3 Turks. the turkish divs were 3,6,7, 26, and 54. Each of the Turkish divisions holding the front was actually a regiment in strenght.

stevebecker
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Re: Ottoman Order of Battle Third Battle of Gaza and Megiddo

Post by stevebecker » 23 Dec 2020 23:02

Mate,

Yes I show the same on him. Only there is not much on him sorry I can find no Bio details on him or any rank then LtCol?

Hamid or Hamit Fakhri or Fahri Bey 26th Div CO 1916 to 48th Div 1917 & 1st Provisional (Composite) Force 1918 LtCol KIA 26-1-18 at Tafileh

The difference in the names is the mix of English and Turkish in our records.

Dates for his movement between divisions is not confirmed

What id known he commanded the Div in 1916 and went to the 48th Div in 1917 replaced LtCol Vetsel or Veysel (Özgür)

His command of the (1st) Provisional (Composite) Force

Palestine formed 1916/17 as counter to Arab Revolt at Maan to Medina Palestine 1st Provisional (Composite) Force LtCol Fahrettin 58th Div 1916/17 to LtCol Cemal Pasa (Mersinli) 1918

Composite (Müretteb or Mürattep) Regt (3Bn/151st 1Bn/152nd 1Bn/150th) LtCol Necip 55th Regt 1916/17 to (Div commander 48th Div) LtCol Hamid or Hamit Fakhri Bey KIA 26-1-18 at Tafileh

Security force for railway lines in Arabia possibly from Amman area? shown in 1916/17 1st & 3Bn's 55th Rgt to Mar 1917 1st & 3rd Bn's 162nd Regt the Maan Moblie Jandarma Bn + Artillery and Cavalry later Composite (Müretteb or Mürattep) Regt (3Bn/151st 1Bn/152nd 1Bn/150th)

Stay safe

Cheers

S.B

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Elwyn W
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Re: Ottoman Order of Battle Third Battle of Gaza and Megiddo

Post by Elwyn W » 28 Dec 2020 03:12

Thank you both.
Happy New Year.

Tosun Saral
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Re: Ottoman Order of Battle Third Battle of Gaza and Megiddo

Post by Tosun Saral » 03 Jan 2021 09:11

Yıldırım Army Group:
7th Arm
-15th AC: 19,20, 24, divs.

8th Army:
-2oth AC: 16, 26, 54 Divs
-22nd AC: 3,7,53 the Divs.
-3th AC: 27th and 3rd Cav Divs
Source: İsmet Görgülü (Tank Staff Col.(R) Prof.Dr. , On Yıllık Harbin Kadrosu ( Personal of 10 Years Long War) p.146,Ankara,1993, Türk Tarih Kurumu Yayınları (publication of Turkish History Society) nr XVI. Dizi i sayı 69

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