How often did the Russian navy attack Sinope in the GW?

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
Felix C
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How often did the Russian navy attack Sinope in the GW?

Post by Felix C » 25 Feb 2019 01:50

Reading of several sweeps and bombardments.

Can someone point me to a book or site with the data?

How many Turkish ships were sunk?

stevebecker
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Re: How often did the Russian navy attack Sinope in the GW?

Post by stevebecker » 26 Feb 2019 00:11

Mate,

I'll have to check, but the Battle at Sinope was in another war in 1854 with heavy naval action.

But I ll see what I can find during the Great War?

S.B

Felix C
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Re: How often did the Russian navy attack Sinope in the GW?

Post by Felix C » 26 Feb 2019 13:28

yes World War I. Read of several sweeps in 1914 and 1915 resulting in Turkish merchant ships being sunk and some warships damaged. Looking for nos. of Turkish vessels lost.

Felix C
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Re: How often did the Russian navy attack Sinope in the GW?

Post by Felix C » 27 Feb 2019 18:55

I was provided two books. One deals with Russian Black Sea activities and the other the careers of Goeben and Breslau. Apparently both have names, dates, etc.

stevebecker
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Re: How often did the Russian navy attack Sinope in the GW?

Post by stevebecker » 28 Feb 2019 00:33

Mate,

There were a number of actions during the war as Russian ship attack ports along the Black Sea coast, there war also a lot of mining going on of these ports.

"At this time, the Russians were launching another attempt to block the port of Zonguldak, this time by using block ships. On December 23 (1914), these block ships were joined by the battle force as Midilli was leaving the Bosphorus for its rendezvous with Yavuz off Sinop. Early the next morning Midilli encountered one of the Russian block ships and opened fire. Rostislav responded to Midilli’s fire, however it could not prevent three block ships from being scuttled in deep water during action. Midilli later changed its direction in order to escape a possible engagement with the larger Russian battle fleet"

They raided again but no mention of Sinope, but passed that port;

"There were, however, favorable developments on the Russian side as well. In mid-July the first Russian dreadnought, Imperatritsa Maria, joined the Black Sea Fleet together with five new destroyers. She participated in her first operation on October 1, when the Russian Black Sea Fleet bombarded Kozlu, Zonguldak and Ereğli. Meanwhile the second Russian dreadnaught, Imperatritsa Ekaterina II, was completed and she became operational in December 1915"

During 1916 operations took place and following the loss Erzurum in Feb and in April Trabzon, Russians came further along the coast keeping coal shipments under preasure.

These raids & mining continued in 1917 but I am not seeing any mention of Sinope, but Ports around there like Zonguldak and others?

Sorry but I can't find a direct attack on the Port during the war, but as a port there must have been, our Turkish mates may need to check there sources to confirm?

Cheers

S.B

Felix C
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Re: How often did the Russian navy attack Sinope in the GW?

Post by Felix C » 28 Feb 2019 16:07

Looking for sources on these and other operations and of course detail.

In November 1914, Russian Admiral Ebergardt led a sweep of the coast sinking several steamers and dozens of sailing ships. Do not know the extent of the sweep.

In the first week of January, 1915, at Sinope a Russian cruiser discovered the Turkish cruiser Medjidieh convoying a transport. After a short engagement the Medjidieh was put to flight, and the transport sunk.

On January 6, 1915, the Russian Black Sea fleet ran into the Breslau and the Hamidieh and damaged them both in a running fight. A week later Russian torpedo boats sank several Turkish supply boats near Sinope.

I see a steamer Georigos sunk in early 1915 on a raid at Sinope. I cannot find this ship in any registry.
"The beaten Turk". The Times (40756). London. 20 January 1915. col C, p. 7. There was not much naval censorship in the early months of the war to include Jan-May 1915 so I suspect it is accurate in terms of place, name, date. Well maybe the name is mistranslated. I thought the steamer may have been Bulgarian with that name.

On Jan 25 Russian ships sank a a Turkish vessel with the entire their entire aeroplane fleet onboard.-unconfirmed.

On Jan 25,26,27 torpedo boats swept the coast and sank several Sailing ships. On the 28 bombarding Trebizond. The same boat then attacked Rizah and sank several sailing ships. Looks like a sweep from West to East.

I have this (unconfirmed) gem from the NY Times: LONDON, July 20. -- A fleet of fifty-nine Turkish sailing vessels laden with war materials for the Turkish Army of the Caucasus has been destroyed by Russian torpedo-boat destroyers, according to a dispatch from Sebastopol to Reuter's Telegram Company.

Also on Sept. 17 1915, Russian torpedoe boats raided the coast near Sinope and sank a quantity of sailing vessels laden with munitions.

By the end of 1915 Russian sweeps had sunk dozens of steamers and hundreds of sailing vessels. (Would love to know the details)

I was recommended to read North of Gallipoli: The Black Sea Fleet at War, 1914-1917 and Halbmond und Kaiseradler: Goeben und Breslau am Bosporus, 1914-1918
Last edited by Felix C on 01 Mar 2019 11:31, edited 1 time in total.

stevebecker
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Re: How often did the Russian navy attack Sinope in the GW?

Post by stevebecker » 01 Mar 2019 00:05

Mate,

Thanks for the lists, I'll check some more sources and with mates on other sites to see whats out there on ship lost around Sinope.

Cheers

S.B

stevebecker
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Re: How often did the Russian navy attack Sinope in the GW?

Post by stevebecker » 02 Mar 2019 00:21

Mate,

I did see this on another site, to check these Ottoman ships sunk during the war;

TRANSPORTS AND ARMED STEAMERS

Bezm-i Alem 4,570 1906 (bought) Britain Sunk in 1914
Tir-i Müjgan (depot ship) 4,050 1906 (bought) Britain Scrapped in 1920
Eser-i Cedid 1,520 1909 (bought) Britain Sunk in 1937
Mithat Paşa 4,450 1911 (bought) Britain Sunk in 1914
Reşit Paşa 4,450 1911 (bought) Britain Scrapped in 1953
Plevne 1,150 1912 (bought) Britain Sunk in 1915
Urla 4,180 1914 (seized) Britain Scrapped in 1954
Nara 300 1914 (seized) ? Sunk in 1915
Mahmut Şevket Paşa 2,690 1915 (seized) Britain Scrapped in 1935
Gülcemal 5,000 1874 / 1910 (bought) Britain Scrapped in 1950
Bandırma 280 ? ? ?
Derne ? ? ? ?
Halep 3,684 ? ? Sunk in 1915
Şam 3,660 ? ? ?
Karadeniz 3,660 1905 / ? (bought) Netherlands Scrapped in 1951
Akdeniz ? 1890 / 1911 (bought) Netherlands Scrapped in 1930
Alemdar 362 1898 Denmark Out of service in 1954
Neveser 362 1890 Britain Sunk in 1917
Kızılırmak 1,945 ? ? Sunk in 1915
Yeşilırmak 865 ? ? Sunk in 1915
Gelibolu 280 ? ? ?
Edremit 280 ? ? Sunk in 1917
Mersin ? ? ? ?
İnebolu ? ? ? ?
Hüdavendigar 820 ? ? ?
Bosporus 2,990 ? ? Sunk in 1915
Rehber 280 ? ? Sunk in 1915
Ceyhun 3,500 ? ? ?
Zonguldak 1,550 ? ? ?
Zafer 330 ? ? ?
Derince 3,300 ? ? ?
Seyhun 3,000 ? ? ?
Uğurola 960 ? ? Sunk in 1915
Patmos 1,900 ? ? Sunk in 1916
Vatan 520 ? ? Out of service in 1916
Resan ? ? ? Sunk in 1916
Suhulet (ferry) ? 1870 Britain Scrapped in 1961
Sahilbent (ferry) ? 1871 Britain Scrapped in 1998
Gazal (tugboat) 182 1910 / 1912 (bought) Britain Out of service in 1954

Another mate sent me this to check out;

There are some useful leads in this thesis https://ir.library.louisville.edu/cgi/v ... ontext=etd particularly from page 244 onwards

Cheers

S.B

Felix C
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Re: How often did the Russian navy attack Sinope in the GW?

Post by Felix C » 02 Mar 2019 01:29

yep seen both. Thanks.
Russian Black Sea sweeps against the Turkish coast are documented here/there. Probably a good book in Russian out there has it all. I recall coming across a Russian White Naval officers in exile website with articles from the 1920-1930s about their war efforts. Cannot find it now. I was not looking at the Black Sea then so did not look for any.

and on the other side of the Golden Horn, I see a report from the British submarine service that up to the withdrawal of subs from the Marmara in 1916, their tally of sinkings are 1BB, 1DD, 5GB, 11 transports, 44 steamers, and 148 sailing vessels. The warships are easily tracked. I have a list of sorts of the steamers. There is an awesome website in Turkish which tracks a few dozen of these wrecks. Will try to find the link. I think most of those above are from those losses. The SVs though..might be too small to track

Well I will wait on those books and of course trawl about more.

Felix C
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Re: How often did the Russian navy attack Sinope in the GW?

Post by Felix C » 02 Mar 2019 23:49

Just an FYI it appears that the early war Russian sweeps sank ships carrying winter clothing to Enver Pasha's army leading to the failure of his Caucasus campaign. If I am not mistaken the failure of this campaign lead to the Armenian Genocide as a distraction measure away from the actual Turk losses. Interesting how history works.

stevebecker
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Re: How often did the Russian navy attack Sinope in the GW?

Post by stevebecker » 04 Mar 2019 00:20

Mate,

Cause and effect

Why its possible I don't see that as a reason. Clearly there were problems pre war as there still is post war.

The problems with transport to the front was the major problem, the failure to invest in a country wide rail system was the main cause for the failures and there effects of the population along the front.

The Black Sea being easier to move supplies, then across miles of poor roads, ment the Russian Navy had a free kick at the Ottoman system

S.B

Felix C
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Re: How often did the Russian navy attack Sinope in the GW?

Post by Felix C » 08 Apr 2019 12:00

Found this on a Russsian site
In 1916, the enemy lost 3 destroyers, 4 submarines, 3 gunboats, 6 transports, 16 steamers and tugs, 4 motor and 865 sailing ships on the Black Sea (History of the First World War 1914-1918. T. 2. P. 280) .

stevebecker
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Re: How often did the Russian navy attack Sinope in the GW?

Post by stevebecker » 08 Apr 2019 23:37

Mate,

Yes could be correct as the Germans lost around that number of U Boats in the Black sea in 1916;

like

UB 45 Constantinople Flotilla 1916 Struck a mine off Varna 15 dead and 5 survivors 6-11-16
UB 46 Constantinople Flotilla 1916 Struck a mine in the Bosporus 20 dead (all hands lost) 6-12-16
UC 15 Constantinople Flotilla 1916 Lost for unknown reason probably off Danube's mouth 15 dead (all hands lost) 30-11-16
UB 7 Constantinople Flotilla 1916 Mined in the Black Sea 15 miles SE of Varna all crew lost (15 dead) 27-9-16

Other boats were lost in the Med

S.B

Tosun Saral
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Re: How often did the Russian navy attack Sinope in the GW?

Post by Tosun Saral » 15 Apr 2019 23:01

Hamidiye sailed to Black Sea from Istanbul on Jan 3th 1915. On 4th of Jan she met Russian Kagol and 4 other destroyers at west of Sinop and turned westwards. During a gun duel with Kagol a 15cm shell hit on the back deck of Hamidiye. Some other shells opened ahole under sea level. Hamidiye hit one of the russian destroyers. For that reason Russians sailed towards northwest. Using this Hamidiye returned towards west again and met Midillli(Breslau) on the night of 6th of Jan. at south of Strait of Kerç .Althouh Hamidiye was an old ship and had less speed and artillery then Kagol and the four destroyers she was able to save herself.

Sourse: Mareşal Mustafa Fevzi Çakmak " Birinci Dünya Savaşında Doğu Cephesi (East Front During WW1), ATASEYayınları, Ankara 2005,p.267,268

stevebecker
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Re: How often did the Russian navy attack Sinope in the GW?

Post by stevebecker » 16 Apr 2019 00:07

Tosun,

Thank you.

Felix, have you tried contacting someone in Sinope, like an historical group that may have a historian or at lest have some knownage of the area?

Sinope Area has a long history from way before Alexander and with Mithratis, and there must be someone who knows there modern history there about WWI and the actions around there?

Of cause translation from Turkish maybe a problem for you?

Cheers

S.B

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